LittleLebowski
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Not much difference between the two but the short action of the .308 is desirable. In Texas, both will take any game in the state.
.308 vs 30.06
- Thread starter Dan-E-Boy
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Bartkowski
Member
I like the 30-06 more because it was the caliber my first big game rifle was in. The recoil is not bad with either though there is a little less in a .308.
If you plan on shooting bullets 180gr and heavier then a 30-06 would be a better choice. My friend bought greek 30-06 surplus for 25 cents a round and I find it for 30 cents regularly at gun shows and in magazines. .308 on the other hand is about 50 cents a round.
If you plan on shooting bullets 180gr and heavier then a 30-06 would be a better choice. My friend bought greek 30-06 surplus for 25 cents a round and I find it for 30 cents regularly at gun shows and in magazines. .308 on the other hand is about 50 cents a round.
Lone_Gunman
Member
If we are talking about use in hunting, the price of military surplus doesn't really matter.
Bartkowski
Member
No, but you can shoot mil surp in a hunting rifle if you want, maybe to get used to it. Hunting ammo for the two is similar near me.
Titan6
member
Really? Why don't you take a peek at Blackfork's thread in the hunting forum?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=313604
rodregier
Member
For a pure hunting rifle, .30-06 is a better choice. .30-06 and .308 both will do the trick for Texas whitetail. However, if you eventually want to hunt bigger game, .30-06 has better heavy-bullet factory loadings available.
when purchasing your rifle, compare the WEIGHT of the rifles in the gun showroom and understand that the heavier rifles will have less felt-to-you recoil than the lighter rifles. THIS difference will have way more of an impact than your choice of .308 or 30-06 in regard to recoil.
My first 30-06 was a lightweight model at just under 9 pounds. It was not muzzle broken, and would kick far more than my 870 12 gauge. I had become accostomed to the 12 gauge and didn't mind the recoil. I was new to shooting at the time (I am still very much learning) and did not want to develop a flinch, so I sold the lightweight to my cousin and bought a Sako built a while back and owned safely in a gunsafe in my father's house. The sako weighs about 10.7 pounds with the scope while unloaded. This gun feels like it shoots softer than the 12 gauge. It is much more enjoyable to shoot, practice with, and take game with.
My first 30-06 was a lightweight model at just under 9 pounds. It was not muzzle broken, and would kick far more than my 870 12 gauge. I had become accostomed to the 12 gauge and didn't mind the recoil. I was new to shooting at the time (I am still very much learning) and did not want to develop a flinch, so I sold the lightweight to my cousin and bought a Sako built a while back and owned safely in a gunsafe in my father's house. The sako weighs about 10.7 pounds with the scope while unloaded. This gun feels like it shoots softer than the 12 gauge. It is much more enjoyable to shoot, practice with, and take game with.
Doug Kennedy
Member
In a nut shell. 270
rodregier
Member
UnTainted has an excellent point about rifle weight and recoil. Knoxx makes "normal" recoil reducing stocks which is a nice alternative to buying a heavier rifle or adding weight to a rifle if recoil is an issue. Pachmyer Decelerator pad is a lower-performance/cost solution.
The conventional wisdom is that you won't notice recoil when hunting. That's probably true for big game hunting, but serious practice can build a flinch or simply fatigue you with recoil.
The other trick for practice if you're recoil sensitive is to reload light loads. A nice 125 or 130g projectile at a reasonable velocity (say 2000 to 2700 fps) out of a .308 or .30-06 will be very soft-shooting. It won't have the same zero, but that's easily soluable if you're using optics.
The conventional wisdom is that you won't notice recoil when hunting. That's probably true for big game hunting, but serious practice can build a flinch or simply fatigue you with recoil.
The other trick for practice if you're recoil sensitive is to reload light loads. A nice 125 or 130g projectile at a reasonable velocity (say 2000 to 2700 fps) out of a .308 or .30-06 will be very soft-shooting. It won't have the same zero, but that's easily soluable if you're using optics.
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jack the toad
Member
I think trying to find a winner when comparing the 06 to the 308 is splitting a very fine hair. I'd hate to have to live on the difference.
As to advent of the 308 from the military standpoint, I understood that after WW2 when trying to modify the M1 Garand to fire full auto, problems occurred that either required lengthening the receiver or shortening the cartridges. Logically shortening the catridge was the way to go. Hence the T65 catridge that later became the 308 Winchester or 7.62x51 and later after adoption by NATO, the 7.62 NATO.
As to my choice today between the two, I'd probably go with the 308.
As to advent of the 308 from the military standpoint, I understood that after WW2 when trying to modify the M1 Garand to fire full auto, problems occurred that either required lengthening the receiver or shortening the cartridges. Logically shortening the catridge was the way to go. Hence the T65 catridge that later became the 308 Winchester or 7.62x51 and later after adoption by NATO, the 7.62 NATO.
As to my choice today between the two, I'd probably go with the 308.
I own both and wouldn't want to have to choose between the two because I like them both pretty much equally. IMO it's only when you have to consider extreme long ranges or large, deadly game that the .30-06 will really prove it's edge over the .308.
You're talking TX Whitetails specifically and as long as you do your part with either of these calibers, the deer won't know the difference.
Maybe it's more of a choice of actions. Do you want a short or long action rifle?
You're talking TX Whitetails specifically and as long as you do your part with either of these calibers, the deer won't know the difference.
Maybe it's more of a choice of actions. Do you want a short or long action rifle?
I've been agonizing over the same decision, and actually came down to the same two rifles- the Tikka and the CZ.
My take is for your first rifle get it in .30-06 for all the reasons mentioned here- it's a classic, always and everywhere available, most versatile and most capable, and yes, all of that is by a very close margin, but there it is.
As for the rifles, I hope you have more luck than I do. Both get nearly universal good reviews from their owners, both are known to be very accurate.
The Tikka is lighter and is available in stainless/synthetic, however, that means it will kick more. The only one I've seen with a wood stock the wood was so plain and muddy looking it was almost ugly.
The CZ is heavier, but (at least in .30-06) not available in stainless or synthetic. The only one I have seen the wood was beautiful and it seemed to balance and shoulder better than anything else I had tried. Unfortunately, it wasn't in .30-06 or I may have bought it on the spot.
They both have good adjustable triggers, but the CZ has a "set" trigger that is almost amazing when it's set, but at least on the one I tried, not as good as the the Tikka's when it isn't set.
So, it all boils down to which is more important to you- Easier maintenance and lighter carry at the expense of more recoil, or classic good looks and lighter recoil at the expense of more weight?
Me- I can't decide, so I'm waiting to find out if a buddy is going to sell me his pre-64 Model 70! If he doesn't, I'm leaning toward the CZ first and then maybe getting a Tikka in .308 later- at least this week.
Be real interested in what you end up with and how you like it!
My take is for your first rifle get it in .30-06 for all the reasons mentioned here- it's a classic, always and everywhere available, most versatile and most capable, and yes, all of that is by a very close margin, but there it is.
As for the rifles, I hope you have more luck than I do. Both get nearly universal good reviews from their owners, both are known to be very accurate.
The Tikka is lighter and is available in stainless/synthetic, however, that means it will kick more. The only one I've seen with a wood stock the wood was so plain and muddy looking it was almost ugly.
The CZ is heavier, but (at least in .30-06) not available in stainless or synthetic. The only one I have seen the wood was beautiful and it seemed to balance and shoulder better than anything else I had tried. Unfortunately, it wasn't in .30-06 or I may have bought it on the spot.
They both have good adjustable triggers, but the CZ has a "set" trigger that is almost amazing when it's set, but at least on the one I tried, not as good as the the Tikka's when it isn't set.
So, it all boils down to which is more important to you- Easier maintenance and lighter carry at the expense of more recoil, or classic good looks and lighter recoil at the expense of more weight?
Me- I can't decide, so I'm waiting to find out if a buddy is going to sell me his pre-64 Model 70! If he doesn't, I'm leaning toward the CZ first and then maybe getting a Tikka in .308 later- at least this week.
Be real interested in what you end up with and how you like it!
Never No More
Member
is that the 308 can be loaded to any performance level that the 30.06 can, plus some that it cannot
Sir,
Take your 51mm case, fill it with IMR 4895, then stuff a 178gr A-MAX on it.
tie is to a tree, with a long string, set it off.
I can use LC 64mm cases, do the same thing and hit all day long.
Plase dont tell us the .308 with its smaller case can out distance the 06. This simply isnt true. Ive been reloading 06 for over 40 years. I own two. A gas op and a M700 bolt.
The stuff I fire thru my bolt, would blow your .308 apart. The round I fire thru my M1 garand is a 152gr BT with 46gr of IMR-4895, try those in yer bolt gun.
Sir,
Take your 51mm case, fill it with IMR 4895, then stuff a 178gr A-MAX on it.
tie is to a tree, with a long string, set it off.
I can use LC 64mm cases, do the same thing and hit all day long.
Plase dont tell us the .308 with its smaller case can out distance the 06. This simply isnt true. Ive been reloading 06 for over 40 years. I own two. A gas op and a M700 bolt.
The stuff I fire thru my bolt, would blow your .308 apart. The round I fire thru my M1 garand is a 152gr BT with 46gr of IMR-4895, try those in yer bolt gun.
The Annoyed Man
Member
Well sir, I'm not a reloader, but I have to confess that this just didn't make sense to me. Here's why: SAAMI recommended maximum pressures for the .30-06 and the .308 are 50,000 cup and 52,000 cup (or 62,000 psi) respectively. According to SAAMI, exceeding those pressures in those calibers risks blowing up any action which chambers them. Since the maxumum SAAMI spec for .308 is 2,000 cup higher than the .30-06, you are either dangerously overloading your .30-06 bolt action, OR you are seriously underestimating the strength of a .308 bolt action.Never No More said:
As I said, I'm no expert, so could you please explain to me why your load, stuffed into a .308 case, would blow apart a .308 action? THIS GUY HERE has a .308 recipe for IMR-4895 with up to 47 grains topped with 150-156 grain bullets.
By the way, are you still in possession of all of your fingers?
evil_brother
Member
30-06, an american classic, not that the 308 isnt though.
R.W.Dale
Member
Make mine a 30-06 for many reasons
The 06 offer better performance than 308 with all bullet weights
ammo is CHEAPER for 30-06 don't believe me check the ammo counter at wally world
Typically anywhere you go there is a better selection of loadings on the shelf for 30-06
and don't bother wasting your breath on that whole goofy short action vs long argument. A quarter of an inch isn't going to make a bit of diffrence. And I find it downright silly to worry about sticking with a short action in a rifle with a %&^#%& 22" barrel. In carbines yeah go with a short action but in a rifle I don't care.
The 06 offer better performance than 308 with all bullet weights
ammo is CHEAPER for 30-06 don't believe me check the ammo counter at wally world
Typically anywhere you go there is a better selection of loadings on the shelf for 30-06
and don't bother wasting your breath on that whole goofy short action vs long argument. A quarter of an inch isn't going to make a bit of diffrence. And I find it downright silly to worry about sticking with a short action in a rifle with a %&^#%& 22" barrel. In carbines yeah go with a short action but in a rifle I don't care.
esmith
Member
Finally someone who agrees with me. This Short Action nonsense is starting to annoy me a little. An extra 8th of a pound of bolt, or sometimes nothing, if companies use the same length of pulls, is really going to slow me down. Besides i like to know im working with something big when i do the action.
Richard.Howe
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 887
It isn't the weight of a short action that gets the rifle-educated happy, it's the stiffness of the action. Ever hear the thutty-ought referred to as inherently accurate? Me neither.
More reading on this .308 vs. .30-06 subject here (search function is our friend) :
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=178898
More reading on this .308 vs. .30-06 subject here (search function is our friend) :
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=178898
R.W.Dale
Member
That's a complete load of hooey that deserves a thread all it's own. On nonbenchrest rifles with stock barrels your target will never know the difference. If accuracy is your goal you buy a rifle with an action that doesn't even have a magazine cutout.
USSR should be along shortly
USSR
Member
I thought you handled it quite well, krochus. Inherent accuracy does indeed warrant it's own thread. But, then again, maybe a bullet DOES know what the headstamp on the case says.
Don
Don
Richard.Howe
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- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 887
Y'all ought to take a gander at the article by John Barsness "Does Inherent Accuracy Exist" in the October issue of Handloader Magazine. JB is one of the "good guy" writers still out there.
He talked with several custom rifle makers and ballisticians -- guys who can convincingly supplement their opinion with evidence beyond the anecdotal -- and generally landed on the belief that the concept of "inherent accuracy" has some merit. Educate then debate.
USSR, of course it's not about the headstamp...it's about the case dimensions and powder column geometry. I'm by no means an expert...but I have shot a little benchrest in my days, and know that the PPC rounds generally stand alone on the winners podium. How come? Or why is the 22mag generally considered a bit less accurate than the 22lr, even though their bullets are often exactly the same?
The whole idea of inherent accuracy is simplt this: for a wide range of ammunition, certain case designs may facilitate better than average accuracy. Not really that radical of a theory, 'specially when you got bazillions of rounds as a dataset.
Here's an interesting dialogue on the subject (pre-prepared for your reading pleasure):
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1671939/page/0/fpart/1
At the end of the day, does it really matter? We may be talking about fractions of tenths of inches here. Just introducing another concept into the .308 vs. .30-06 dialogue...not saying that the '06 is an innacurate cartrige...that would be ridiculous.
Here's one posting that I thought was decent:
He talked with several custom rifle makers and ballisticians -- guys who can convincingly supplement their opinion with evidence beyond the anecdotal -- and generally landed on the belief that the concept of "inherent accuracy" has some merit. Educate then debate.
USSR, of course it's not about the headstamp...it's about the case dimensions and powder column geometry. I'm by no means an expert...but I have shot a little benchrest in my days, and know that the PPC rounds generally stand alone on the winners podium. How come? Or why is the 22mag generally considered a bit less accurate than the 22lr, even though their bullets are often exactly the same?
The whole idea of inherent accuracy is simplt this: for a wide range of ammunition, certain case designs may facilitate better than average accuracy. Not really that radical of a theory, 'specially when you got bazillions of rounds as a dataset.
Here's an interesting dialogue on the subject (pre-prepared for your reading pleasure):
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1671939/page/0/fpart/1
At the end of the day, does it really matter? We may be talking about fractions of tenths of inches here. Just introducing another concept into the .308 vs. .30-06 dialogue...not saying that the '06 is an innacurate cartrige...that would be ridiculous.
Here's one posting that I thought was decent:
dwave
Member
Never No More said:
You joking about running that load in a .308? Hodgdon lists a load very similar to that for a .308 on their online reloading data center.
155 GR. SIE HPBT 155 IMR 4895 .308" 2.775" 43.5 2664 45,100 PSI 47.5C 2897 58,200 PSI
155 gr. bullet (3 grs. heavier than your load) powered by 47.5 grs (max) of IMR-4895 (1.5 grs. more) with pressures within the limit. I see nothing special about your reload that would blow apart a .308.
EDIT:
NP with that one either now I have been looking at more loads on Hodgdon:
180 GR. SPR SP 180 IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 40.5 2439 43,800 PSI 44.7C 2674 58,700 PSI
180 gr. bullet powered by 44.7 grs. IMR 4895. See that little "C" after the max load listing? That stands for compressed. That means the case is full.
Load info from
http://data.hodgdon.com for .308 WIN
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USSR
Member
Richard,
Inherent accuracy exists only in the realm of the the benchrest shooters. This is a short range game with specific rules where the difference between winning and not winning is measured in thousands of an inch. The PPC line of cartridges were developed to be optimal for this very specific type of shooting. Once you enter the rest of the world of shooting in which there is a much stronger interface between the rifle, the shooter, and the environment (wind at longer distances), the miniscule differences between case dimensions and powder column dimensions are overwhelmed by far more important considerations, such as: rifle quality, brass quality and consistency, bullet quality and consistency, load consistency, and shooter ability.
I think the thing about the so called "inherent accuracy" claims that irks me the most is, guys tend to think that if they buy a rifle chambered in an "inherently accurate" cartridge, they are guaranteed an accurate rifle. This implies that if your brother-in-law Bubba, chambers a rifle in this cartridge using an E.R. Shaw barrel in his garage, because it is an "inherently accurate" cartridge, it will shoot accurately. Also, there are several cartridges with the "inherently accurate" tag, that do not share the short, fat case dimensions that are the latest craze: the .222 Remington, which dominated BR for years, and the 116 year old 6.5x55, which continues to produce results both here and in Europe. In summary, I will only say, that unless you are shooting the benchrest game, the cartridge dimensions/powder column consideration is far down the list of things that make for an accurate rifle.
Don
ReadyontheRight
Member
Yes - For hunting ammo as well. At least here in MN.
You will always find 30-06 at any store selling ammo. You can also always find 30-06 and .270 on sale during hunting season. .308 is harder to find and less likely to be on sale. They just don't sell as much, so they don't stock as much.
JesseL
Member
The Annoyed Man said:
You're missing a piece of the puzzle. While a load of 46-47 grains of 4895 under a ~150gr bullet is probably a safe load in either cartridge, and both will produce about the same performance from that load, the 30-06 will do it with less pressure due to it's larger case volume. The differences between the .308 and the .30-06 are negligible until you start going to ~170gr+ bullets. At that point the 308 doesn't have the case volume to handle the amount of slower powder it takes to get a heavy bullet moving without generating dangerously high pressures.
Consider the difference between the .45-70 and the .454 Casull. Both can produce similar performance with bullets up to about 300 grains, but the Casull is working at something like 3 times the pressure of the 45-70 and the Casull can't handle the big 500 gr bullets that the 45-70 can.
Edit: I ran the numbers in QuickLoad for .308 & .30-06 with identical bullets and charges of 4895. See the attached pics for the results.
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