.32 vs .22LR for Self-Defense

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A respected mentor of mine was a career clandestine services officer who served during from the post-WWII cold war period through the Vietnam era, having survived many missions, retiring to die peacefully at home in his bed. He taught me that a concealed handgun's purpose is to neutralize an immediate threat from contact range to ten feet to facilitate escape. Harry carried whatever handgun was common among criminal elements in the country where the mission took him. This often meant a .32 ACP or 7.65mm Browning, because an M1911 variant or S&W revolver made it plainly obvious that he wasn't a local.

While a .32 ACP is not your first choice for defense, the first rule of gun fighting is to HAVE A GUN. In that worst-case scenario any gun is better than no gun at all. A .32 auto pistol is easier to control to produce rapid, accurate double or triple taps, when compared to a .380 pistol of similar size, which usually carries one less round.

When using a marginal caliber shot placement and penetration are most important. Light hollow point bullets which do expand often fail to penetrate bones upon entry, or to defeat winter clothing or intermediate cover needed to reach vital organs. Comparing European CIP specification hardball in the .32 ACP to typical .380 FMJ fired from similarly short barrels any difference in performance not important.

Typical American .32 ACP FMJ ammo features a 71-grain bullet and claims an advertised “catalog velocity” of 905 f.p.s. based upon an industrial test barrel. In my chronograph testing of US ammo RWS, Geco, Fiocchi, Privi Partisan or Sellier & Bellot 73-gr. hardball in .32 ACP produce about 900 f.p.s. from pocket pistols such as the Beretta Tomcat, and 950+ f.p.s. from the Walther PP and approaches 1000 f.p.s. in the 1922 Browning. Typical .380 FMJs fired from a gun of barrel length less than 3 inches slightly exceed 800 f.p.s. European militaries and police organizations carried .32 ACPs for decades and felt they were quite adequate. German police not replace their .32s until after the 1972 Munich Olympics terrorist attacks.

Improved performance claimed for popular .32 ACP hollowpoints is mostly advertising hype. My own experience testing various .32 pocket guns is that none of the JHP loads available today expand in either water jugs or gelatin when fired from a barrel shorter than 3 inches. While some people believe that the .32 ACP has benefited from improvements in factory ammunition, US loads are more anemic than their European counterparts and much less reliable in function.

Most WWII-era pistols steadfastly refuse to function with American ammo. The popular 60-gr. JHPs, are not reliable for carry in many guns and in my epxerience are a sure recipe for a “Jam-O-Matic.” Only the Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP at 1200 f.p.s. actually chronograhs over 1100 f.op.s. and has enough recoil impulse (when loaded as the first round "up the spout") to positively eject and reliably chamber a hardball load following in the magazine. But its exposed lead nose doesn’t permit rat-tat-tat-tat feeding any more than anemic 900 f.p.s. American 60-gr. JHPs. While it expands in a 10cm barrel, such as from the Walther PP, it does not from the 2.4 inch Beretta Tomcat.

The best pistols for pocket carry should enable safe carry with the chamber loaded, and should be cable of immediate firing by stroking the trigger without having to manipulate an external safety. In the event of a misfire, the trigger mechanism should enable an immediate repeat strike upon the primer by repeating the trigger stroke. Pocket pistols which meet these basic criteria are the Walther PP and PPK. Mauser HSc and Beretta Tomcat.

Ruger's LCP is not available in .32 ACP at this time, and may never be. The simple fact is that it doesn't have one-handed repeat-strike capability, so if you get a misfire it takes two hands to clear, recock and "tap-rack-bang~!" I'll stick to my PP, HSc or Tomcat.

Let’s be clear that the .32 ACP is not my choice as a defense gun against either two-legged or 4-legged predators. However, there are those times when “any gun is better than no gun,” so it is better to take the .32 along than to go unarmed and take your chances. When the cylinder bulge of my usual .38 Special is too obvious, a .32 automatic drops nicely into a pocket holster. I like the fact that it makes a bigger hole than a 22 and presents a low profile.

Stick to hardball. AND don't stop shooting after the first shot. We aren't looking for any "one-shot stops" here, but to quickly and accurately put double or triple taps on target. Multiple hits increase stopping power. Think of a .32 ACP as a 00 buckshot pattern which arrives sequentially rather than concurrently. Do you want to stand in front of it?
 
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a concealed handgun's purpose is to neutralize an immediate threat from contact range to ten feet to facilitate escape.
Good way to put that.
Neither a .22 or a .32 is appropriate for wading INTO a gunfight with, but either will assist is getting OUT of one.
.32 edges out anything in rimfire for reliability, which is why I'm in the market for a little .32 mousegun as BUG, GFWICHAG, and just because I want a mousegun autoloader in a caliber other than 9mm.
 
I have read previously that European 7.65 is loaded hotter than American. I have not, however, seen any chronograph figures backing this up.

Ed, would you happen to have any documentation on that? How big is the difference?
 
I have read previously that European 7.65 is loaded hotter than American. I have not, however, seen any chronograph figures backing this up.
Did you read post #42 of this thread (page 2) ??? I'll repeat the .32 stuff for you.
North American Arms has such figures from their Guardian (2 1/8" barrel). http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html
Here are a few examples from that site:
Sellier & Bellot 73gr FMJ = 841fps for 114.6fpe
Fed HydraShok 65gr JHP = 798fps for 91.9fpe.
Win Silvertip 60gr JHP = 805fps for 86.35fpe.
Speer Gold Dot 60gr JHP = 808fps for 87.0fpe.
American Eagle 65gr FMJ = 818fps for 96.6fpe
Winchester 71gr FMJ = 761fps for 91.3fpe

Sellier & Bellot's website has 73gr FMJ .32acp at 176fpe (muzzle velocity). But S&B doesn't say what barrel length.

There are some good "REAL" .32acp tests from a Kel-Tec P32 at Golden Loki.
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm
S&B 73gr FMJ is rated there at 912fps for 135fpe
CCI Blazer 71gr FMJ = 751fps for 89fpe
Remington 71gr FMJ = 764fps for 92fpe
Winchester 71gr FMJ = 786fps for 97fpe
Buffalo Bore cast lead = 914fps for 139fpe (BB's website's exaggerated figures are from a Beretta with a 4" barrel).
Fed HydraShok JHP = 824fps for 98fpe.
Geco 73gr FMJ rated highest at 947fps for 145fpe (if you can still find any for sale).

Steve's Pages also have some great "real" .32acp testing.
http://stevespages.com/page8f32acp.html
 
Look at Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics 32 ACP 60 gr JHP. For example, it's rated at 1200 fps/205 ft lb with the Saami test barrel, compared with Blazer's 900 fps and 128 ft lb.

Fiocchi tends to load stuff like it was originally loaded; a bit hotter than what others make or sell here. Maybe we're so litigious in the USA that it's all watered down a bit to avoid lawsuits about exploding old guns.

For all of my less-than-monster handguns, from 9X18 down, I use Fiocchi for carry. Fiocchi is affordably priced, too, pretty much the same as the others.
 
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Thanks for the replies. However, these tests are performed on the American ammo. Even if the ammo is made in Europe it still conforms to the American standards.
I guess what I'd like to know is what was the original European military loading for 7.65. Or for .380 for that matter.
 
batjka said ]"However, these tests are performed on the American ammo. Even if the ammo is made in Europe it still conforms to the American standards."

Negative, Negative, Negative. Ammunition loaded in the EU conforms to CIP, which is NOT the same as ANSI or SAAMI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Internationale_Permanente_pour_l'Epreuve_des_Armes_%C3%A0_Feu_Portatives

In the USA the equivalent of C.I.P. is the SAAMI although SAAMI is a manufacturer's association. In contrast to C.I.P.’s decisions the recommendations of SAAMI have not the force of law.

These two main ammunition standards organisations are cooperating in an effort to unify their rules, though there are still hard at work to solve differences between their rules. These differences consist of varying chamber dimensions and maximum allowed chamber pressures. There are also numerous technical variations in the way chamber pressures are measured giving entirely different results.

Ammunitions approval differences C.I.P. almost exclusively uses one type of Piezoelectric sensor (named "channel sensor") made by the Swiss company Kistler[1][2] that requires drilling of the cartridge case before firing the proofing cartridge in a specially made test barrel. SAAMI uses another type of Piezoelectric sensor (named "conformal sensor") mostly made by the US company PCB Piezotronics that does not require prior drilling of the cartridge case but the sensors are more expensive to use, since each cartridge calibre needs its special transducer. For shotshell ammunition, the technical variations are easier to solve since only one type of Piezoelectric sensor (called "tangential sensor") is available from the PCB Piezotronics and Kistler International companies to be used without drilling without variations amongst SAAMI and C.I.P. rules.

Proof test differences. Under C.I.P. proof test standards a drilled case is used and the piezo measuring device (transducer) will be positioned at a distance of 25 mm from the breech face when the length of the cartridge case permits that, including limits. When the length of the cartridge case is too short, pressure measurement will take place at a cartridge specific defined shorter distance from the breech face depending on the dimensions of the case.

Under SAAMI proof test procedures, for bottlenecked cases the centre of the transducer is located 0.175 in behind the shoulder of the case for large diameter (0.250 in) transducers and 0.150 in for small diameter (0.194 in) transducers. For straight cases the centre of the transducer is located one-half of the transducer diameter plus 0.005 in behind the base of the seated bullet. Small transducers are used when the case diameter at the point of measurement is less than 0.35 in. The difference in the location of the pressure measurement gives different results than the SAAMI standard.

Unsafe combinations and possible chamber and ammunition dimensional conflicts
Finally, some cartridges with possible chamber and ammunition dimensional conflicts, similar to the unsafe combinations,are listed in the references Delta L problem article in the Wikipedia.
 
I don't want to go OT too much but I really have to bring this up..

With the current offering of comfortably pocketable and reasonably priced 380 and even 9 mm handguns in the market what is the real need of a a small 32 or 22??? Not too mention ammo cost (for the 32) being actually higher then 380 and significantly higher than 9 mm.

What are such stringent concealment requirements that "force" you to buy such diminuitive pistol???


I'm a normal guy (5',7", 195) and I have to dress business casual and sometimes business formal for work, I wear mostly jeans in my free time and shorts and T-shirt in summer......I never had any concealment problems whatsoever with my Kel-Tec P-11 (double stack 12 rounds 9 mm) in my pocket..I do not even feel it anymore....and you can go thinner with a single stack PF-9 or a Kahr.


What is the need for a pocket 22 or 32?? Do you go around wearing a speedo??? :D

If you make the decision to go around armed, just do it with the proper tools...
 
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saturno_v, you're right about the 9mm options on the market, but down in the real mousegun size class, personally, I'd rather go .32 than .380 for a number of reasons
1-generally you get at least +1 capacity in equivalent .32/.380 pistols.
2-I already do CC a 9mm, so why bother adding an easily confused round?
3-I already do CC a 9mm, so why bother with a slower variant in the same bore size?
4-the current .380 shortage is getting silly, and when I stockpile, I can cram more .32 into a drawer.
5-I'll pack whatever the hell I want, and you can just like it.
6-we're talking about a deep cover gun and BUG here ... NOT a primary pistol.
7-I just want a .32 for some reason, so there!
 
Ive heard a lot of .22 versus [insert other mild caliber here]. For me, choosing a pocket gun, it came down to size, reliabilty and durability.

I chose the Black Widow from North American Arms, in .22 magnum. Shes been flawless thru 250+ rounds of CCI Maxi-Mags (they come outta that teenty barrel at around 980 fps), so shes been reliable. Size wise, shes the same size as a Kel-Tec .32, and durability wise, the edge went to the Black Widow, because its stainless steel, not polymer and steel.

Factoring in that it came cheaper (around $300 for the gun, a pocket holster and 200 rounds of Maxi-Mags, with tax), and its become my edc gun. While I'll carry something larger when I can, the little NAA carrys well in the pocket and I can put all 5 .22 magnum fmj's into COM of a man-sized target from 4 yards. In a little under 3 seconds.

I call it the noisy cricket :D
 
Having owned and shot a Kel-Tec P-32 and P3AT back-to-back, I'll say this much without equivocation:

1. The .32 is a pop gun compared to the .380.
2. The .380 is not a powerhouse by any means.

Take 1 and 2, and deduce 3 for yourself...

If you need some help, I'll do my best to summarize.
I will never, ever, ever (did I mention "ever"?) trust my life to a .32.
I do not carry a .380, but would not argue with someone who wanted to.

And before some G-D fool asks the question, I'll answer it: Do I want to volunteer to be shot with a .32?

Hell yes. If I'm ever in a gunfight (and I hope I never am) I hope like Hell my opponent is armed with a .22/.25.32, because I will be returning fire with a .45. And I really like my odds in that match-up.
 
OP,

I have 2 KT p32's and I love em. They are what they are... not a serous duty gun, but a perfect back up or light CC gun. Mine are both totally reliable. As for the .32 compared to the 22lr, the 32 has about a 50% energy increase and almost 50% bullet diameter increase over a 22. I also trust a centerfire more than a rimfire for self defense. I don't pay too much attention to the .32 haters. Not a thing wrong with the round as long as you are aware of its limitations. As long as you make clean, direct hits (no intermediate barriers like car doors/walls/etc) the caliber will be "good enough" for most self defense situations out in public.

Love the P32... highly recommended.
 
I've heard more people say that their P-32s are reliable than P-3AT owners. The P-32 is the original design of the two, and the .32 ACP seems better suited to a pistol of that size/weight than .380.

The P-32 has a few pluses over the P-3AT:
o Lower recoil
o One more round in the mag
o Locks back on empty

I carry a 9mm, and if I carried a backup, I wouldn't want to confuse ammo.

Finally, the .32 can be used in your .30-30 or .30-06, etc. with an adapter.

Mr. Harris: thank you for that article. Loved it!

Regards,
Dirty Bob
 
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.32 / .22 for self defense

I agree with the people who say one should carry the largest gun in the largest calibre they can competently handle.

That said, I attended training in south central OK some year back, where the range owner, a retired sheriff, was training a very heavy woman who was confined to a wheel chair. Due to her many health problems she could not get out of the chair or manage anything the rest of us might have called a "real gun."

She was being trained with a small .22 semi-auto. I knew the sheriff well and asked about it. He said something like "Watch this, Bubba!" He set the lady in front of a prop door. Without warning he yanked it open by a rope. In a flash the lady pulled that gun out from the folds of her skirt and dumped all rounds into the forehead of the target, making a group I could cover with my palm. I 'spect that woulda killed 'im!
Backpacker 33
 
When I saw this thread I almost choked - but it was kinda interesting seeing my questions of 5 years ago. To answer my old original post, .38spl now is as low as I go. With the additional experience in CHL work, its a very rare day I can't dress around my 642 or M85 and have to yank my P32 (yes, I did buy it) out of the safe.

The fact that .32acp ammo is kinda pricey doesn't help. I run about 50 rds thru it every 3-4 mos just to remember that I hate the trigger - but have no qualms about its concealability/reliability if I really had to carry it.
 
Well I don't know revolvers, and other than .32, you have the option of .22, .25, .380 in about the same side of gun. I have shot the P40 and P11, if that is comparable to the difference between a .32 and a .380, I'll take my one more round and put it on target along with the rest of them.
 
I carry a P32. So easy to conceal and operate plus it's amazingly accurate for such crappy sights.

If the .32 is good enough for James Bond it's good enough for me.

Yes I know, he also carried a .25 acp. That's pushing it.
 
The p32 doesn't hurt when I shoot it, it is accurate at 15 yds. My son has a p3at. I knew after the first shot it wasn't for me, but I continued through the magazine. I haven't shot it since. I shoot a .44mag 4 inch barrel Redhawk with no problems.
lloveless
 
The 32 is good enough

Shot placement is far more important than bullet size. That said, it is better to carry something small concealable and comfortable than to have a large gun left at home or in the glove compartment. More people are carrying these smaller guns for that reason. Also, at close distances, say 3-6 feet encounters, the little 32 is easy to hit head shots with too and with much less recoil.
 
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