As promised - 32 Cal tests from this weekend!!!

[Onward Allusion]

I had a feeling that the other thread was gonna be closed! Hahaha

Had to go to the club kind late 'cause they frown on shoot stuff other than targets.

A few different firearms were used for the tests, but the primary gun was a Taurus M327 2" SS snub chambered in 327 Federal Mag. The cartridges tested were:

- 32 S&W (short)
- 32 ACP
- 32 S&W Long)
- 32 H&R Mag
- 327 Fed Mag

Yeah, kinda cool that one gun can fire 5 different cartridges.

The main test was not too scientific and consisted of shooting 2 rounds of each caliber into a stack of 2"x4"'s. I had a total of four 2x4's. It turns out, I only needed 3 (at most). As a point of reference, old school ammo effectiveness testing consisted of 7/8" pine boards. These 2x4's are slightly more dense than the old school pine boards.

Results . . .

32 S&W - 2 rounds did not go through the 1st 2x4 - no real surprise here. It went about 1.5" into the wood.

32 ACP - 2 rounds also did not go through the 1st 2x4 - again, not too surprised. The 2 rounds went about the same distance into the lumber.

32 S&W Long - same results as the 1st two cartridges. It did fully crack open the back of the 1st 2x4, though. So, slightly "better" than 32 S&W (short) and 32 ACP (from a revolver chambered in 327 Fed Mag).

32 H&R Mag - Um... Went through the 1st 2x4 and dented the 2nd. Kind of surprised here!

327 Fed Mag - 1 went through the 1st and lodged in the very back of the 2nd. The second bullet lodged about 1/4 inch in the 3rd 2x4.

Out of two shots from FIVE different calibers, only ONE of the 10 bullets went through more than two 2x4's! I wished I had my 357 with me but I was wearing my 9mm today.

For grins, I tested a few other guns chambered in 32.

- Iver Johnson Top Break 3" 32S&W (perfect bore - no pits) - 5 shots, 3 went all the way through the first, 2 protruding from the back of the first. BTW, this is the gun in my center console.

- H&R American Double Action 2.5" 32S&W Long (first gun - good frosted bore)- 6 shots, all went through the 1st and lodged about 1/4" in the 2nd.

- H&R American Double Action 2.5" 32S&W Long (second gun) - a few pits in bore) - 6 shots, none went through the first.

- H&R Bicycle 2" 32S&W (fully restored piece with mint bore) - all 5 went through the 1st.

- Kel Tec P32 - All 8 shots went through the 1st and lodged 1/4" in the 2nd.

******************
For more grins, I tested a couple chambered in 22LR - CCI Hi Vel 40 Gr.

- Taurus 94, 2" 22LR - 9-shot - A few went through the 1st & some lodged in 2nd abut 1/4 inch in 2nd.

- S&W Airlite 22LR, 1.875" - 8-shot - Same as above...

I then loaded up the 22's with "modified" Stingers - Flattened bullet like a WC. Both guns blew through the 1st and lodged about 1/2" in the second. I suspect it had something to do with the 1st piece being pulverized by the first few rounds.

********************
Conclusions?

* 1st - shoot the correct ammo out of a gun. Even though the M327 could fire 5

cartridges, it was not made for 32 S&W/L or 32 ACP.

* 32 caliber is a weak caliber, even as a 327 Fed Mag.

* Handgun calibers are weak calibers in general.

* Good bores drive bullets better than pitted bores. (Duh)

* 22LR from a snub pretty much equals the power of 32 S&W.

* Modified 22LR's from a snub exceeds the damaged of 32 S&W, 32 S&WL, & 32 ACP.

* Carry whatever you want because it's your life. Those who carry smaller calibers have their own reasons. People who call those who carry small calibers names or threaten with bodily harm...well, what can I say...

Personally, I have many other options. Trust me, I probably have more guns that most of you. I carry what I want for my own reason. My primary carry is a 608 with a lopped off barrel. It's a 357. I carry ammo that throws out about 650 ft lbs a piece from this. I hope this meets with all y'all's approval.

My other carry pieces are 357's or 9mm's. My backup is a 380 or 22 Mag. My gun in my center console is an old 32 S&W. Why? Because if it gets stolen, it'd be a bear to get ammo for it.

Posted a few pics too but there were way too many...

 

[Onward Allusion]

More Pics...

2nd set of pics...

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Onward Allusion: My gun in my center console is an old 32 S&W. Why? Because if it gets stolen, it'd be a bear to get ammo for it.

Do you really think that is a good reason?

Back to the tests: no, they are not very scientific, in that they do not demonstrate the performance differences among the cartridges with much resolution, but they are certainly illustrative of the fact that those rounds are at the low end of the scale.

Don't take that as a criticism. I do not perform my own penetration testing, nor do I ever intend to.

I, for one, would certainly not want to be shot or stabbed by anything that can go an inch and a half into a wooden board. But I would not choose such an implement for self defense, either.

On that console: Many of us do that, but an episode on The Best Defense last season showed a violent criminal actor slipping into the passenger seat of a car that had just been exited. A gun in the center console would likely not prove very easy to access and retain. Off topic, but something to ponder.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I, for one, would certainly not want to be shot or stabbed by anything that can go an inch and a half into a wooden board. But I would not choose such an implement for self defense, either.

2.25" inches with the "center console" gun. I think a 3 inch barrel in good condition wrings a little more out of that anemic cartridge. Yes. Even I will admit that it is an anemic cartridge, but it is still better than harsh words or a sharp stick. Yes, ONE reason I keep this antique in the center console because ammo would be literally nil on the streets. I guess I could keep my Nagant revolver or some some other obscure revolver in there as well.

Ya know, one thing that some people don't understand. These little anemic cartridges give a person time to run. A lucky shot will also resolve the situation. Presentation of the gun itself is sometimes all that is needed.

The other thing is that some automatically assume that a gun is all that one can use to defend themselves. I understand that some thugs are impervious to small bullets but that doesn't mean it isn't going to slow them down or wound them enough for a man in decent condition to provide a good fight or take them down. I've had a quad bypass a little over a year ago and I still can bench 10 reps of 150lbs. Drop that down to 130lbs and I can do 3 sets of 10 reps fairly easily. Granted, I'd worked my butt off to get back to shape. Also, I'm pretty sure most of you guys out there are in better shape or are stronger.

I'm fairly confident that after emptying 5 shots of 32 into someone I can slow 'em down enough with other means (knife, fists, pepper spray, keys, teeth...etc) to get away (if it is a 1 on 1 situation).

Now, with all that said - I carry my 608 or P11 with a P3AT or NAA Mini 22 Mag as backup.

I guess the reason for my "tests" and posts regarding these anemic cartridges is that I get really annoyed at folks who pontificate against people who carry anything smaller than a 44 mag as their concealed carry weapon.

Hell, carrying is a personal choice. Carrying a 22LR is better than not carrying anything. If anyone think that a 22LR or 32 S&W can't hurt them, please shoot yourself in the kneecap with one of these cartridges and let us know how it turns out.

 

[MedWheeler]

Just curious, what .32ACP load were you using (I only ask about that one because it's the only one for which I have a gun chambered.)

 

[Onward Allusion]

For the 32 ACP, I was using Fiocchi 73 grain FMJ. Supposedly one of the hotter 32 ACP's around.

If I can find some time, I'm going to reload some 32 ACP and 32 S&W this week and test again with "hot" reloads. I'm only going to use the M327 for those tests. It could probably blow up one of those antiques if loaded too hot. Gotta get the chrony out along with the magnifying glasses.

 

[TfflHndn]

Can't say I agree with the conclusion that a .22lr has the same "power" as the .32, whether short or long. "Penetration" and "power" are not the same. A bowling ball may not penetrate 3" of wood, but I wouldn't want one dropped on my head. The .32 in any flavor (and especially the 327) will make a larger wound channel and impart more energy than a 22, some to a far greater extent, even if it doesn't penetrate more wood. While it is not a large projectile, it is still 2-3 times more mass than the 22. Comparing penetration is all well and good, but must be viewed in context. The bad guy is not likely to be wearing 2x4 body armor and you are not likely to need to shoot through wall studs to defend your home. Not discounting the OP's interesting observations, and thanks for those. The 32 H&R and 327 Fed Mag are very viable defense rounds, and I would even feel okay with the 32 long with the right projectile. Shot placement can make up for a lot, and the 32 long is very manageable.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Can't say I agree with the conclusion that a .22lr has the same "power" as the .32, whether short or long. "Penetration" and "power" are not the same.

Agreed. I should have stated that in the case demonstrated, it would appear that 22LR and 32 S&W/L & 32 ACP had about the same penetration. Energy-wise, they are different. Shot placement is key.

I performed these "tests" to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

[ThomasT]

What type of wood were you shooting? It looks like white pine. If it is it is softer than yellow pine. You might try the old style baffle set up with 1" (3/4") pine boards spaced 1" apart. I beleive that what was used long ago to determine if a round was dangerous to be shot with. As far as I am concerned they are all dangerous to be shot with.

I like my 32 caliber guns and have no problems using them for defense. I have a S&W 431PD 32 mag that I keep in my nightstand. Its been there for about 9 years now. I see no reason to change.

You might try a block of clay. I have done that before and at least you can reuse the clay and with a couple of blocks recover most of your bullets.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Can't say I agree with the conclusion that a .22lr has the same "power" as the .32, whether short or long. "Penetration" and "power" are not the same.

Agreed. I should have stated that in the case demonstrated, it would appear that 22LR and 32 S&W/L & 32 ACP had about the same penetration. Energy-wise, they are different. Shot placement is key.

I performed these "tests" to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

[Mayvik]

What loads were you shooting? Would not be surprised if HP/SJSP in 327 didn't penetrate deeply but that hardly makes it weak...try again with some Buffalo Bore hard cast and see what you get...or use gel or at least wetpack. You should be seeing a huge difference between 32 short and 327.

 

[jimbo555]

Thank you for doing the tests. I really like that little H&R 2 inch bicycle gun!

 

[Onward Allusion]

I'll post the exact loads tonight.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you for taking the time to do and post your tests.

I agree the 32 auto generates more power than the 22LR but that's been covered.

I was going to ask which 32 Auto ammo you tested because i have a P-32 but you already answered that. (too bad you didn't test the 60gr Fiocchi SJHP ammo, not the XTP ammo)

Now for the one thing not asked. Why did you come to the conclusion, "32 caliber is a weak caliber, even as a 327 Fed Mag." That may be true of the 32's you tested but the good 32 you didn't test is the 32-20. That was a very popular cartridge back when and it was a great varmint and light deer cartridge for a very long time. The .327 Federal Magnum has a hard time trying to match it's performance.

 

[Saleen322]

327 Magnum Penetration

Mayvik wrote: What loads were you shooting? Would not be surprised if HP/SJSP in 327 didn't penetrate deeply...

That is what it comes down to and sectional density is the issue. A 100 grain SP has a sectional density of about 0.147. That compares to a 357 mag with a 125 grain bullet @ 0.140. At the same velocity, with the same bullet construction the 327 has a little edge but they are all but the same and they would penetrate about the same. However if you up the sectional density as in a 153 grain bullet out of a 327 mag, now you have a sectional density number of about 0.225 meaning a deep penetrating bullet. Okay, here is what it looks like applied:



The round on the left is a 153 and on the right a 100 grain Federal factory round.

Okay, shoot the 100 grainer (1607 fps) and it gets about the same as your tests, through 2 and 1/2 way into number 3 2X4.

This the recovered bullet from #3

Next the high sectional density bullet only loaded to a modest 1156 fps (lots left if more velocity is needed). I only set up 5 2x4 pieces and it went through all of them. Sectional density, bullet construction and velocity are the best ways to determine penetration. YMMV.

 

[35 Whelen]

You're correct in that your tests are very unscientific. I think it's fairly meaningless that any caliber will or won't penetrate a 2x4 unless you intend to be, for some odd reason, shooting at 2x4's frequently.

I'd be willing to bet that the super light fragmenting type loads (i.e.- 78 gr. 45ACP, 145 gr. Glaser 45 ACP, et al) won't penetrate a 2x4 very well either.

I mean no offense at all by the above statements, just wondering why you choose wood for evaluating the merits of self defense ammunition.

35W

 

[WestKentucky]

It's from my post on antiquated rounds. Someone thumbed their nose at "inadequate rounds" that won't pass through a given amount of wood. I'm waiting to see this test on a 20ga shotgun at 40 ft which resembles me shooting at a squirrel on top of a branch in the oak tree. That's a meaningful test. This is just novelty.

 

[BSA1]

O.A.,

First of all nobody has even suggested using 44 Magnum for self-defense.

In fact you have stated you carry a handgun chambered in .357 Magnum.

Second you advocate use of the 32 S&W on this forum. Some of us strongly disagree and posted our reasons. There has not been any personal name calling but relying on the 32 has been called foolish. What my position is I have more effective non-lethal weapons that are proven in the field. In my pocket at this moment I am carrying 15% Red Pepper spray. This is very strong nasty stuff. I recently tested it on myself by rubbing a little dab on my cheek and my eyes watered and skin burned for 10 minutes. A three second spray at minute of carjacking will give a more reliable proven method than the 32 S&W (or Long and Auto).

Third your tests creates more questions. You do not comment on the condition of the fired bullets. In my little woodchucking tests all but one of them was in excellent condition and can be reloaded. In fact the 32 round that the nose slightly deformed could be reloaded in a pinch.

Another question is why you didn't shoot the boards with the 9mm you said you were carrying? It would made for a interesting comparison.

You are wedded to using the 32 S&W for self-defense and nothing is going to change your mind but you are going to have to be a cool customer to stick that gun in his face and pull the trigger while being attacked. I'm pretty sure I'm not that cool headed.

 

[Saleen322]

OA, FWIW I think your thread spurred conversation and thank you for that. Also I am curious as to what round you fired for the 327 mag. The penetration I got with the Federal 100 grain soft point was close to what you got, just a little deeper. That may be explained by the greater barrel length on my Blackhawk as that would likely give my revolver some more velocity. I have shot soda bottles full of water before but never thought of 2x4s until you did this thread!

I don't draw any conclusions from shooting wood other than when comparing two rounds, if one consistently goes deeper into wood than another; it would likely penetrate deeper in any other medium compared to the shallower penetrating round. Interesting thread.

 

[Onward Allusion]

ArchAngelCD
<SNIP>
Now for the one thing not asked. Why did you come to the conclusion, "32 caliber is a weak caliber, even as a 327 Fed Mag." That may be true of the 32's you tested but the good 32 you didn't test is the 32-20. That was a very popular cartridge back when and it was a great varmint and light deer cartridge for a very long time. The .327 Federal Magnum has a hard time trying to match it's performance.

32 caliber in general is not powerful out of a short barrel. The energy potential of the 327 Fed Mag is wasted on a snub. The 327 round was Federal Hydra-Shok 85 gr JHP. Out of a 3" barrel, it should get around 1,300 fps. That generates around 318 ft lbs. It's along the lines of a 9mm, but it's a smaller hole. I'm guessing that from a 2" barrel, the fps is around 1,150 fps or around 250 ft lbs.

The 327 doesn't start showing its potential until it gets to the 4" to 6" barrel point. I probably shouldn't have said that the 327 is weak. I should have said that out of a snub's barrel, the 327 underperforms.

I really really wished a rifle gets chambered in the 327. That would make the cartridge shine.

 

[Onward Allusion]

35 Whelen
<SNIP>I mean no offense at all by the above statements, just wondering why you choose wood for evaluating the merits of self defense ammunition.

Because I don't drink milk or soda. No gallon jugs or 2 liter bottles. Also, my wife would kill me if I took up all the space in the fridge to make ballistic jello. Finally, I haven't had a newspaper or phone book in the house for probably 5+ years.

Once it gets cold enough, I'm gonna mix some jello and have it set in the garage.

With that said, shooting 2x4's does demonstrate penetration. Back in the day, the "gold standard" for testing cartridge effectiveness were 7/8 inch pine boards. I figure 2x4's are a close approximation of that test. I mean if one cartridge goes through 4 2x4's while another goes through 2, which one has more energy? No, it's not scientific per se, but it's quick and simple.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Mayvik
<SNIP>
What loads were you shooting? Would not be surprised if HP/SJSP in 327 didn't penetrate deeply but that hardly makes it weak...try again with some Buffalo Bore hard cast and see what you get...or use gel or at least wetpack. You should be seeing a huge difference between 32 short and 327.

Ammo used:
- Remington 32 S&w LRN 88 grain
- Fiocchi 32 ACP FMJ 73 grain
- Fiocchi 32 S&W Long WC 100 grain
- Federal 32 H&R Mag JHP 85 grain
- Federal 327 Fed Mag Hydra Shok JHP 85 grain

A couple of factors came into play. The short barrel of the M327 drained the power from the magnum rounds. The long jump for 32 S&W and 32 ACP probably had some impact on energy as well.

Like I'd said in another post, I shouldn't have called the 327 weak. It was just a poor candidate when fired from a snub.

When I have more free time, I'll go the Buffalo Bore route and see what happens in wetpack or gel.

 

[35 Whelen]

Because I don't drink milk or soda. No gallon jugs or 2 liter bottles. Also, my wife would kill me if I took up all the space in the fridge to make ballistic jello. Finally, I haven't had a newspaper or phone book in the house for probably 5+ years.

Once it gets cold enough, I'm gonna mix some jello and have it set in the garage.

With that said, shooting 2x4's does demonstrate penetration. Back in the day, the "gold standard" for testing cartridge effectiveness were 7/8 inch pine boards. I figure 2x4's are a close approximation of that test. I mean if one cartridge goes through 4 2x4's while another goes through 2, which one has more energy? No, it's not scientific per se, but it's quick and simple.

Hey sort of off the subject but I recently discovered a dead simple, inexpensive way to make a water "chamber" in which to shoot bullets to test for expansion and penetration.

Go to the Dollar Store and buy a couple of those small, shallow laundry baskets. Then pick up a few of the really cheap small poly tarps. Now set the laundry baskets on something elevated (I used the picnic table in the back yard) and line them with the tarp. Fill them up with water and you're ready to shoot! I could get off a couple of shots with my 45 Colt easily before the water drain out. The bullets were easy to recover and all I had to do was reposition the tarp in the baskets, and refill and shoot again! A fellow could also use trash bags for liners instead of the tarps if he wished.

35W

 

[Onward Allusion]

BSA1

First of all nobody has even suggested using 44 Magnum for self-defense.

No. No one suggested the 44 mag but that wasn't my point. Some of you guys from that other thread talk like if you don't carry a 45 ACP or (insert large caliber) you shouldn't carry at all...or would be better off with a frying pan.

In fact you have stated you carry a handgun chambered in .357 Magnum.

Yes, I carry a 8 shot 357 most of the time. Other times, I carry 9mm, 380, 32, or even a 22 LR. Am I foolish to carry anything other than my 357? I don't think so. Situations vary. It would not be a good career move for me to sit down with my boss or my staff with my 357 bulging from my side.

Second you advocate use of the 32 S&W on this forum. Some of us strongly disagree and posted our reasons. There has not been any personal name calling but relying on the 32 has been called foolish. What my position is I have more effective non-lethal weapons that are proven in the field. In my pocket at this moment I am carrying 15% Red Pepper spray. This is very strong nasty stuff. I recently tested it on myself by rubbing a little dab on my cheek and my eyes watered and skin burned for 10 minutes. A three second spray at minute of carjacking will give a more reliable proven method than the 32 S&W (or Long and Auto).

NO. I do not simply advocate the use of the 32 S&W. I advocate carrying at all waking hours and if it happens to be a 32 S&W at the time, or a 22LR, or a 25ACP so be it; it is what it is. Still a heck of a lot better than not carrying. Human beings are fragile creatures despite what these forums tell you. A bullet to the eye, throat, or groin will stop most people. This is even true of a 25 ACP or 22LR. I advocate carrying the most appropriate caliber in an appropriately sized gun for the occasion. Like I'd said, for me, most times it's a 357 and can be anything upward or downward in caliber and size.

Third your tests creates more questions. You do not comment on the condition of the fired bullets. In my little woodchucking tests all but one of them was in excellent condition and can be reloaded. In fact the 32 round that the nose slightly deformed could be reloaded in a pinch.

32 S&W/L, 32 ACP, 380 should be FMJ and aim for penetration. These are anemic rounds when compared to larger ones. Hence, they are not going to deform. Even hollow points aren't going to deform or expand at those low speeds from short barrels. I've attached the pics from a couple of the recovered rounds (32 SW LRN & 32 SWL WC). The WC deformed only because it hit a 2x4. It would have been fairly undamaged if it were flesh.

Another question is why you didn't shoot the boards with the 9mm you said you were carrying? It would made for a interesting comparison.

I would have, but it was getting late and the 2x4's were full of holes. Any tests would not have done justice. (pic attached)

You are wedded to using the 32 S&W for self-defense and nothing is going to change your mind but you are going to have to be a cool customer to stick that gun in his face and pull the trigger while being attacked. I'm pretty sure I'm not that cool headed.

<Sigh> No. I am not wedded to the 32 S&W. I have a IJ Top Break with a 3" barrel in 32 S&W in my center console because:
- I don't want to lose any more hearing should I have to fire in my car. I already have tinnitus.
- Ammo is tough to come by, even online. Should it get stolen, the thief would have an antique not a hi cap whatever. Yes, it is a little silly to think like this.
- It would serve the purpose. 5 shots from this particular gun goes through a 2x4 because of the longer barrel and the barrel is in very very good condition. Point blank will do damage. I am fairly confident of that. Will the BG be DRT? Probably not, but it will buy time for whatever comes next. Keep in mind - primary is a 357 or 9mm and my first option would be to get the hell out of the situation.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Wish there was a 32-20 to compare