As promised - 32 Cal tests from this weekend!!!

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Onward Allusion: Some of you guys from that other thread talk like if you don't carry a 45 ACP or (insert large caliber) you shouldn't carry at all...or would be better off with a frying pan.

I do not recall any such assertion, but several us did indicate that we believe that carrying a .32 S&W for self defense is a terrible idea.

And yes, a frying pan was mentioned in that context, as was my walking stick.

I advocate carrying at all waking hours and if it happens to be a 32 S&W at the time, or a 22LR, or a 25ACP so be it; it is what it is. Still a heck of a lot better than not carrying.

Maybe better, maybe not, but I remain unconvinced that carrying a .25 or a .32 S&W is a "heck" of a lot better than carrying an effective non-firearm weapon.

A bullet to the eye, throat, or groin will stop most people. This is even true of a 25 ACP or 22LR.

Come now! Realistically speaking, what do you think the likelihood would be of striking a violent criminal actor who is moving fast in such a part of the anatomy?

I have a IJ Top Break with a 3" barrel in 32 S&W in my center console because:
- I don't want to lose any more hearing should I have to fire in my car. I already have tinnitus.

That is something to take into account, and very seriously, but there are surely more prudent choices.

- Ammo is tough to come by, even online. Should it get stolen, the thief would have an antique not a hi cap whatever. Yes, it is a little silly to think like this.

Yes, it is.

- It would serve the purpose. 5 shots from this particular gun goes through a 2x4 because of the longer barrel and the barrel is in very very good condition. Point blank will do damage. I am fairly confident of that.

Yes, it should "do damage", provided it penetrates. It may even result in the ultimate demise of the attacker. The question is whether it would be sufficiently likely to stop a determined, violent attacker. Several of us have our doubts.

There was a time that the .32 S&W was the most popular revolver cartridge in the country. There are good reasons why that is no longer true. And there ae many, many better choices.

My aunt had an old .32 SW once--some kind of 5-shot solid frame revolver. I cannot imagine carrying if for self defense. I don't even like the idea of carrying my grandfather's .32 Long.

For back-up? If one has to resort to a back-up weapon, one can pretty much assume that things have become really serious indeed.

 

[Onward Allusion]

For back-up? If one has to resort to a back-up weapon, one can pretty much assume that things have become really serious indeed.

Now, THAT is definitely something to consider and deserves more thought. Like I'd said before, I am not wedded to 32 S&W or any particular caliber.

 

[Saleen322]

Wish there was a 32-20 to compare

I wanted to check to be sure but I actually have one in a contender barrel. The 327 mag actually is faster loaded to SAAMI specs as the 327 mag is certified to 45,000 PSI and the 32-20 has a max of 16,000 CUP. While I am sure you could safely go hotter than 16K in a contender, the shooter needs to be aware of the test limits. The Lyman manual (#49) lists the fastest 32-20 100 grain load @ 1508 fps using a 14" barrel from a universal receiver. The Blackhawk with a Federal factory 100 SP is doing 1607 fps from a 5.5" barrel.

 

[BSA1]

Kleanbore covered several of my counterpoints so I will address your other comment

Human beings are fragile creatures despite what these forums tell you.

That is simply not true. The human body has a very strong survival mechanisms and is well protected. The heart is about 4” in size. It is well protected by the rib cage, chest wall and breast muscles. The bullet has to have a lot of energy to overcome these parts and even if it reaches the heart it doesn‘t mean it is going to stop the heart from beating.

The spine is located in the back of the body and is protected by a lot of muscles and organs.

If the human body is “fragile” why are there so many well document incidents of the attacker being shot multiple times before they cease their attack? Millions of soldiers have survived horrible battlefield wounds. What a more recent real life incident involving citizens;

On April 11, 1986 two criminals named Michael Lee Platt and William Russell Matix were involved in a shootout with eight FBI agents. Platt shot and killed two agents, seriously wounded three agents and inflicted minor injuries on two other agents. Platt was shot multiple times during the shootout yet was able to continue the fight. Neither Platt or Matix had drugs or alcohol, in their system.

A bullet to the eye, throat, or groin will stop most people. This is even true of a 25 ACP or 22LR.

Debatable. A visit to a major hospital trauma E.R. would be enlightening for you. In fact unless the bullet is needed for evidence most Doctors do not remove small caliber bullets such as the 22, 25 and 32 as the body will encapsulate the bullet and preventing it from causing further damage.

I advocate carrying the most appropriate caliber in an appropriately sized gun for the occasion.

Now you are to the meat of the topic.

I have a IJ Top Break with a 3" barrel in 32 S&W in my center console because:
- I don't want to lose any more hearing should I have to fire in my car. I already have tinnitus.
- Ammo is tough to come by, even online. Should it get stolen, the thief would have an antique not a hi cap whatever. Yes, it is a little silly to think like this.

Hearing loss can be corrected with hearing aids if you are still alive after the incident.

When I first started working the streets some cops carried throw down guns like your little 32. It almost sounds like you expect a criminal to break into your car and try to steal your gun. Very strange thinking indeed when simple precautions will keep your gun safe while you are away from your vehicle.

 

[RON in PA]

Since I sometimes carry a KelTec P-32 with Fiocchi ammo I was very interested in your results. The bullets did penetrate through one board demonstrating that the 32 ACP does have some umph if shot in a weapon chambered for it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Since I sometimes carry a KelTec P-32 with Fiocchi ammo I was very interested in your results. The bullets did penetrate through one board demonstrating that the 32 ACP does have some umph if shot in a weapon chambered for it.

I agree...

I chose Fiocchi ammo because it reported the highest velocities and when you're shooting a tiny .32 Auto like the P-32 you can use all the velocity you can muster. Before they changed their site Fiocchi was reporting velocities and they were claiming 1,200 fps from the 60gr SJHP .32 ACP round. Now I know that won't happen in the short barreled P-32 but when you start high and lose some velocity you are still higher than most other ammo available.

BTW, not the HP ammo they build with the Hornady XTP bullet but the generic SJHP 60gr bullet they also use. (Part #32APHP not #32XTP) On the Fiocchi USA site they are currently listing 1,100 fps for the #32APHP ammo.

 

[jimbo555]

Is a keltec p32 any more appropriate and prudent to carry than a 32s&w long revolver? I would trust the s&w h.e. more than the keltec if I were inclined to carry a 32.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'm not sure what the tests prove...I never used 2X4's as test media. I did *pay* to have my .32 acp hand load development tested by professionals. I shoot 75 gr. hard cast lead flat noses over 3 gr. of Unique. 1050 fps + and +200 fpe. 15" - 17" of penetration in calibrated ballistic gelatine.

If it's not effective as an SD round not many .38 Specials out of a snubbie nor .380's out of "toy" pocket pistols will do any better. A one shot stopper and preferred SD round it is not, the .32 acp. But the only shooting I ever witnessed (I was less than 10 feet away and looking at the attacker and the victim!) up close and personal was 3 rounds of .25 to a would be robbers center and I'll never forget watching his lights go out at the first round.

I don't think shooting 2X4's is gonna help prove the case that smaller caliber's can be relied upon for SD. They are marginal. I don't think you can count on a one shot stop with any hand gun caliber. The whole Caliber Wars thing is just silly you guys. No one's mind has been or ever will be changed. I know mine won't....I'll carry my .32's for SD ( and my 9mm, .380, .38, .357!) and hope I never have to use them. If I do I'm convinced my .32's placed fast and well will serve me as well as my 9mm placed fast and well. Penetration tests on 2X4's aside.

VooDoo

 

[jimbo555]

I agree Vodoun. Shot placement and penetration. All calibers fail when placed poorly. The 32long has a reputation of being very accurate and recoil should be mild even with hotter handloads. It was a frontline police caliber at one time it should be more useful than a nightstick. No caliber is a 100% sure thing one stop instant killer. Or we would all agree to carry that gun and caliber.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I don't think shooting 2X4's is gonna help prove the case that smaller caliber's can be relied upon for SD. They are marginal. I don't think you can count on a one shot stop with any hand gun caliber. The whole Caliber Wars thing is just silly you guys. No one's mind has been or ever will be changed. I know mine won't....I'll carry my .32's for SD ( and my 9mm, .380, .38, .357!) and hope I never have to use them. If I do I'm convinced my .32's placed fast and well will serve me as well as my 9mm placed fast and well. Penetration tests on 2X4's aside.

VooDoo

Yeah, you are right. Very few minds will change because of 2x4's. However, if only one person decides on carrying a gun chambered mouse caliber instead of a sharp stick (or frying pan) and it just so happens to save their bacon one day, then I am happy.

I've learned from my days living in and around Chicago just how valuable a little 25 ACP can be. A FIE Titan in 25 ACP saved my butt twice back in the day. If it weren't for that little mouse gun, I'm pretty sure I would have been beaten senseless and my wife & her friend would have been raped by a group of young yewts. I hate to put it such stark terms but sometimes some folks just don't get it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Vodoun da Vinci: If it [the .32 ACP] 's not effective as an SD round not many .38 Specials out of a snubbie nor .380's out of "toy" pocket pistols will do any better.

Most of the available objective evidence indicates otherwise.

A one shot stopper and preferred SD round it is not, the .32 acp.

No handgun can be relied upon as a "one shot stopper", but the .32 ACP is certainly not a "preferred SD round."

The whole Caliber Wars thing is just silly you guys. No one's mind has been or ever will be changed. I know mine won't....

On the other hand, many of us are capable of learning. Not too many years ago, I "knew" that my .45 ACP was far superior to a 9MM with good ammunition. My mind has been changed. Rob Pincus writes that his mind has changed.

I'll carry my .32's for SD ( and my 9mm, .380, .38, .357!) and hope I never have to use them.

I don't like carrying different guns unless I have a good reason. Muscle memory thing.

If I do I'm convinced my .32's placed fast and well will serve me as well as my 9mm placed fast and well.

Many of us are not so convinced.

Penetration tests on 2X4's aside.

I think we have established that the tests were not scientific.

So, what is likely to matter?

• Precisely what the bullets damage.
• The psychological and physiological condition of the attacker.

The first of those depends upon where the bullets strike and at what angle, penetration, and permanent wound channel.

And contrary to popular conception, the first of those, as it applies in a surprising, quickly unfolding violent criminal attack, is not so much a function of how well the shooter and his firearm are able to hit the x-ring at the range, as the term "shot placement" might imply, as it is a function of other things.

To wit, one must consider combat accuracy--skill in scoring hits fast; and the number and speed of rounds delivered effectively--one simply cannot line up the sights precisely on a critical part of the anatomy of a charging attacker.

For me, the first will depend at least in part on the grip--is there a place for my pinky, for example; on the trigger; and, of course on training and practice. I would also like to have a front sight.

The second will depend on capacity and recoil.

On last thing--how fast on can extract that firearm from its holster or pocket could make all the difference.

 

[Gordon]

About the worn barrel thing on short barrel hand guns: I have 2 Remington top break derringers, a blue one with a worn barrel but still mechanically sound and a like new barreled nickle one. The nickle barrel one is .004 " more or less tighter at the muzzle than the blued one. With Navy Arms made in Brazil .41 RF ammo about 20 years old I chronographed the tighter barrel at about 610 FPS from 5 feet and yes it tore right thru a full thickness old red wood 2x4" and lodged half way thru the 2nd one. The worn barrel had 485 FPS and lodged in the first board with no deformation on the backside of the same 2x4" (10 years ago) . This is not the first time I have verified this phonomena .

 

[jimbo555]

All I know is my 12 guage can cut a 2x4 in half with 1 shot. That's my main home defense weapon. Too bad it doesn't fit in my pocket!

 

[BSA1]

Onward Allusion,

Regarding your comments about using the 25 acp for self-defense on two occasions please post the following information;

How many attackers were there?
How many of them did you shoot?
How many shots did you fire?
How many shots hit the intended target?
What part of the body was hit by your shots?
What was the attacker(s) reaction when they were shot?
How deep did the bullets penetrate?
What was the distance?
How were the attackers dressed?

Details, details.

 

[Onward Allusion]

BSA1 - It was a long time ago, but IIRC there were 5 of 'em. No shots fired.

Yeah, yeah - I know what you're gonna say....that little 25 ACP wouldn't have done any good against that size group. That's not the point. You know it, I know it, and most people reading that post know it.

You and I do not agree. You seem to think you gotta carry a 357 mag (which I do, ironically) to be able to protect yourself. That's fine. Believe it or not, I am totally ok with people carrying whatever they are comfortable with. I don't go around putting down calibers. I advocate that everyone carry, though.

I also don't agree with you, because the majority of BG confrontations end without any shots fired. A person carries what they have. At the time, all I had was a 25 on me and a 22LR sitting at home.

Different situations warrant different guns/calibers. I don't carry my 357 in the office because it would make my staff and boss nervous. So, I have a NAA Mini or P32 on me there. When I go out with the wife, I have my 357 (usually) with a P3AT in my back pocket. When I go to Chicago, <excuse me gotta spit>, I carry a 5946. When I'm running around on my own, it's either a 357 or P11. I am not tied to any one gun or caliber.

Oh, sorry - forgot about the other time. Coming home kinda late. Parking was in the alley. Car slowly drives, by, stops and backs up. Half way drew and they saw the movement and they drove off. Again, Chicago.... <gotta spit again>...

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Handgun calibers are weak calibers in general

I couldn't agree with you more. I will never trust a pistol if a rifle or shotgun will do.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

If you carry a .32acp check out Buffalo Bore's load. It's the best I've seen.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Onward Allusion: I also don't agree with you, because the majority of BG confrontations end without any shots fired.

But, of course, that is an entirely nonsensical reason for any decision regarding choice.

The only relevant question is what might be needed should the contingency materialize.

I don't carry my 357 in the office because it would make my staff and boss nervous.

I don't carry one, either, but that's not because of any concern about making anyone nervous.

I just don't think its a good idea to set one of indoors.

Never have.

 

[BSA1]

Yeah, yeah - I know what you're gonna say....that little 25 ACP wouldn't have done any good against that size group.

You represented your post as you actually using your handgun in two self-defense situations. I was asking for details about the performance of the round in those situations. You don't say whether you had to draw you gun or point it at any body. It seems more like a case of having a handgun gave you a sense of security.

You seem to think you gotta carry a 357 mag (which I do, ironically) to be able to protect yourself

Please cite the post where I have said that.

Believe it or not, I am totally ok with people carrying whatever they are comfortable with. I don't go around putting down calibers. I advocate that everyone carry, though.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761010&page=2

It's your life so go for whatever you gives you the most feeling of security. However for most people using a firearm is the last chance to save themselves from serious bodily injury or death in which they may only be able to fire one round. Self-defense is much more than simply carrying a 100 year old handgun with a cartridge that was inadequate for use against humans when it was originally designed.

I also don't agree with you, because the majority of BG confrontations end without any shots fired.

So if bluffing is your self-defense strategy why carry a real gun? Go buy a replica. That way you won't have to worry about it if it gets stolen from your car.

Different situations warrant different guns/calibers.

I have said that several times on THR.

However it is important not to develop overconfidence in your concealed carry weapon. The manufacturer of the Seecamp LWS warns about this in the owners manual;

"It has no sights, as we do not encourage firearms misuse with the promises of non-existent capability. If you cannot hit your mark with a natural instinctive pointing of the gun in the direction of the target, and feel the need for sights, the LWS 32 is not the gun for you."

You continue to advocate small caliber cartridges and guns that have non-existent capability.

 

[golden]

Carry a 32 if it works for you

I carried a .32ACP WALTHER PPK for a year and a half. In my opinion, it was a better choice than the 2 inch, 5 shot .38 Special that I carried before that. The PPK pringted less, held more rounds and was MUCH EASIER TO SHOOT ACCURATELY for me.

I used COR BON Powerball in the magazine and a FEDERAL Hydra Shok in the chamber. While either of these rounds are not very powerful, the only .38 Special (NON +P) load that I found worth using was the FEDERAL Nyclad 125 grain hollow point and I did not think it was that much more powerful than the .32ACP rounds I was using.
I know that a +P or +P+ round would have upped the performance, but at the cost on INCREASED RECOIL! As I get older, I find that I am less recoil tolerant. My desire to go to the target range and shoot a box hard recoiling rounds was gone.

I switched to the .380ACP for my off duty carry when GLOCK brought out their model 42 which fit my needs perfectly and was lighter than the PPK. Recoil is not a problem for me with the model 42.

Still, I felt pretty safe with my PPK in .32ACP because it was absolutely reliable and I could shoot it faster and more accurately than a .38 Special revolver.

Jim

 

[Onward Allusion]

BSA1 - "You continue to advocate small caliber cartridges and guns that have non-existent capability."

No. I do not advocate small caliber cartridges. I advocate carrying a gun. Any gun, instead of being empty handed or in your case, a frying pan.

This has been beaten to death between the two of us. We will never agree on this. I'm not going to reply to you on this particular subject anymore. We simply don't agree, but there's absolutely no need for snark.

Now, if you want to talk reloading or what kind of stuff to shoot 'cause it's fun, I'd be more than happy to. BTW, the shooting stuff is fun thing is one item that I absolutely agree with you on! I need to make some gello.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Onward Allusion: I advocate carrying a gun. Any gun, instead of being empty handed...

Well, I suppose I see the point.

But: if it is likely that that gun would prove less effective than a non-firearm weapon, or if it might well prove dangerous to the shooter, some of us would not advocate carrying it.

Some very small firearms are difficult to get into action quickly and safely; some are difficult to hit anything with; some cannot be fired rapidly; some are not reliable; and some are seriously lacking in terms of wounding effectiveness. Some are all of the above.

Mark Twain is reported to have quipped that the only safe place to be when someone is shooting a pepperbox is directly in front of the gun. On a more serious note, Frank C. Barnes related that the .41 rimfire short would often bounce off a tree at short range and land at the feet of the shooter. He also opined that the .25 ACP is inadequate for serious self defense. The first bullet from the .32 revolver fired at President William McKinley was deflected by his coat button, and the second resulted in his demise from infection more than a week later. President Theodore Roosevelt was shot in the chest by a would-be assassin with a revolver, and he delivered a 90 minute speech afterward.

Against that backdrop, and with my experience in defensive pistol training, my considered opinion is that there are better choices for self defense than the least effective firearms. A frying pan would likely be very low on the list in most circumstances, but a good stick would be much higher.

 

[BSA1]

Onward Allusion,

I'm not being a snark or any reason to take it personally. You started this thread and have made a case for why you think the 32's are a good choice for self-defense. Several of us disagree. I have merely responded to each of your points with my own counterpoints.

In one of your posts you alluded to using the 25 in self-defense. I was curious as to what the results were as I have seen the results of several shootings in which the 25 was deflected by ribs and the skull and lodged just under the skin.

One of the problems in this discussion is a lack of mutual understanding of what the term "self-defense" means to each individual. For you it may be telegraphing to potential attackers that you are armed by sweeping your coat back and touching your gun without drawing and displaying it (post 40). The potential troublemaker moves on and you go about your business.

The second standard you mention is when the potential victim displays their sidearm but do not fire any shots.

However the topic of this discussion is the what the actual effect is on the attacker when they are shot with a small, underpowered cartridge,

The point that I and others are making is just having a gun doesn't make for a good self-defense strategy and it doesn't even have to be a lethal weapon. For example the 15% Red Pepper Spray I carry is really, really nasty stuff that will almost instantly blind a attacker. The real life incident I cited of a elderly lady putting the lights out on a much younger, stronger rapist with a cast iron skillet is a perfect example of using a much more effective weapon when in close quarter combat. Unusual choice of weapon but highly effective thinking outside the box. Kleanbore has cited examples to real life failures of the 32.

Bill Jordan said it best; There are no second place winners.

 

[jimbo555]

I could find examples of real world failures with 9mm's, does that prove that the 9mm is not effective for self defense?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by jimbo555: I could find examples of real world failures with 9mm's, does that prove that the 9mm is not effective for self defense?

Of course not, even when one considers the rather dramatic failures that have been experienced with the .25 and .32. Even a .357 Magnum will fail to stop.

But one needs also to factor in what might be, for want of a better term, called the "preponderance of the evidence". Study this.

And then there are the empirical data on penetration and permanent wound channel.

Plus the fact that no agencies who study the subject responsibly recommend carrying the little cartridges these days.....