As promised - 32 Cal tests from this weekend!!!

[Rule3]

Well I only read the first few posts I have to disagree with the statement that

" 32 caliber is a weak caliber, even as a 327 Fed Mag.

* Handgun calibers are weak calibers in general"

I shoot the 327 Fed Mag out of a 2" SW 632. It is a blistering round in the 115 and 110 JSP, the 85 grain is a reduced recoil and still a very high velocity penetrating round. With the 115 Gold Dot or XTP look at some real ballistic tests.

The 32 ACP is a fine round for those that can not handle heavy recoil. (it worked well for Bond, James Bond) Seriously not it is not a one shot man stopper like a 45 ACP or a 357 but is very effective to get someone out your face. As is the lowly 380.

Come down to my range and you can hold my targets anytime you want.

Well duh, handgun calibers compared to rifles is not an issue you don't CC a rifle. That's like saying a Kia is not a Semi.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Rule3: Well I only read the first few posts I have to disagree with the statement that

" 32 caliber is a weak caliber, even as a 327 Fed Mag.

* Handgun calibers are weak calibers in general"

Let's start with the first one.

The 2X4 tests were not very scientific, and they do not provide sufficient resolution to distinguish very well among the different .32 rounds.

On the second one: that statement really just means that a large majority of persons shot by handguns survive, and that generally, it takes several hits to stop or even slow a violent criminal actor who is not predisposed to be stopped.

I shoot the 327 Fed Mag out of a 2" SW 632. It is a blistering round in the 115 and 110 JSP, the 85 grain is a reduced recoil and still a very high velocity penetrating round. With the 115 Gold Dot or XTP look at some real ballistic tests.

I would certainly select a .327 Federal Magnum over a .32 Long, and in fact I do not think I would decide to not carry one if I had one.

The 32 ACP is a fine round for those that can not handle heavy recoil.

As I understand things, it is comparable to the .32 Long. Not for me, thanks.

Seriously not it is not a one shot man stopper like a 45 ACP or a 357 but is very effective to get someone out your face. As is the lowly 380.

I would not be misled into thinking that either a .45 ACP or a .357 Magnum is a reliable "one shot man stopper". Do not confuse muzzle blast and recoil with wounding effectiveness.

The .32 ACP would not be my first choice to "get someone out of my face", but I'm sure it is superior to the .32 S&W. The general consensus among the cognoscenti is that the .380, with proper loads, is about minimum.

 

[jimbo555]

For non-LE self defense pretty much any caliber will work most of the time. Bad guys will avoid being shot whether its a 22 or a 45 that's shooting at them. LE have to pursue and put the bad guy in handcuffs I just have to convince him to go bother someone else. Sometimes you see a really hard case that absorb lots of 9mm,40's and 45's. It all depends on what level you want to prepare for. When I'm home I have rifles shotguns and handguns to take care of most problems. I personally carry 38special,380, 9mm and 45cal at different times but we all have to decide at what level we prepare for. I have carried a 22lr at times and felt adequately armed for self defense. We all have different levels of tolerance for recoil. And only hits count.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by jimbo555: For non-LE self defense pretty much any caliber will work most of the time.

Whether or not the shooter is a sworn officer, the same factors apply: physiological stopping, dependent upon what is damaged (that is, upon penetration, what is hit, and wound channel); and the psychological stop. My not wearing a badge does not make the vitals of a perp one whit more easy to penetrate or more likely to bleed.

Bad guys will avoid being shot whether its a 22 or a 45 that's shooting at them.

Let us not fall into the dangerous trap of psychological projection, and assume that a violent criminal actor will behave the way we would.

Of course, we can probably assume that everyone will go to some means to avoid being shot, but you can assume that he will be attacking before you have reached for your firearm. At that point, the perp's level of desperation, his belief that you even have a chance of shooting first, and even his level of awareness that you are armed or see him attacking are all parts of the picture.

LE have to pursue and put the bad guy in handcuffs I just have to convince him to go bother someone else.

Or stop him or them, and that will be up to him or them.

I personally carry 38special,380, 9mm and 45cal at different times but we all have to decide at what level we prepare for.

Excellent choices.

I have carried a 22lr at times and felt adequately armed for self defense.

The problem is, how one "feels" may not be at all consistent with the results of an objective evaluation of one's real needs, whether it relates to shooting ability, ability to draw from whatever set-up you are using, magazine capacity, effectiveness of the firearm, and so on.

We all have different levels of tolerance for recoil.

True, and recoil can also hinder our ability to fire quickly and effectively enough--say, four or five shots in a second.

And only hits count.

Usually.

 

[jimbo555]

"...objective evaluation of ones real needs." That's where everyone has to decide for themselves what's best. Some carry fullsize high capacity plus a backup with a ar15 in the truck and some carry a naa22 revolver without a reload. Most fall in the middle with either a pocket 380, snub 38 or a single stack nine. It takes all kinds. Bottom line is, I would prefer a 32 pistol over a stick and a fry pan. Yes I agree there are better choices. But depending on what the threat is you can say that about any handgun. You also have to take into account age and physical abilities.

 

[BSA1]

There are several factors that should be considered before using 100 year old calibers;

1. The average adult male in 1900 was 5'9" tall and weighed 160 lbs.

2. The average adult male in 2000 is 5'9.5" tall and weighs 176 lbs.

3. 2 in 3 adults are considered to be overweight or obese.

4. 1 in 3 adults are considered to be obese.

So adult males in America today are taller, heavier and have more body mass.

5. Drugs such as LSD, Heroin, Methamphetamines and PCP did not exist 100 years ago. Use of some of these drugs are know to greatly reduce the users feeling of pain and to ignore the injuries to their body.

6. Psychological. In the Infamous Miami shoot out with the FBI neither Matix and Platt were under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Matix was shot 6 times. Platt was shot 12 times yet 2 agents were killed, 3 seriously wounded and 2 had minor wounds.

More powerful handguns and ammunition is the result of a real need. I enjoy shooting my mouse guns but they do not and will not ever serve for self-defense.

 

[Kleanbore]

One other thing...

regarding violent criminal actors.

If your attacker, or attackers, are motivated solely by the desire to obtain something of value from you, and if everything works out just right in terms of their realizing that you have a gun, they just might withdraw and "go bother someone else".

But if they are the kinds of people whose motivation is to exercise power by dealing in violence for the sake of violence, they might not.

Relying on the former would be sort of like betting on drawing an inside straight.

So, to assert that "pretty much any caliber will work" is wishful thinking at best. You will need an adequate weapon, the skill to use it, tactics, and perhaps a lot of luck.

I carry a 9MM that I can use, and frankly, I do not feel "comfortable" all the time with it.

Nor would anything bigger change things.

 

[jimbo555]

My level of comfort is different than yours. Difference of opinion. I don't see a multitude of mousegun failures used in self defense. We have had 1 murder so far this year in the town that's 30 minutes away from me. You may have a different threat level than me. Rattlesnakes are my main problem. And I have had to kill 2 in the last 5 years.

 

[Rule3]

Well, this data has been around for a long times and debated upside down and backwards. So take it as you will. If there is a better one then please post it.

Folks whine and complain that the 9mm is not big enough either.

Bottom line, shot placement is King. If someone can't control a big caliber than a well placed smaller one may be better,

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Just to add some real world data I chronograph some factory ammo out of my 2" SW 327 Federal Average of 10 rounds.

The Federal 100 grain jacketed SP went 1395 fps (avg) and
the Speer Gold Dots JHP 115 gr went 1300 fps(avg)

These are out of a 2" barrel/ Plug those into a energy calculator,

 

[Mayvik]

The 85gr Hydrashok is about the worst 327 round you could have tested as far as penetration goes. It was designed not to do that.

 

[Rule3]

The main "issue" I have is that many people who carry a firearm think that they must Kill the bad guy to stop the threat, I certainly do not want kill someone even if he is a threat to me or my family.

I want him to STOP what ever it is he is doing that is harming me so I can get away and be safe.

So just seeing a gun he runs away fine by me, he a not fatal shot and stops and goes away, fine, If it escalate than whatever happens will happen.

Of course and it took a while there is always the 300 lb crack head dazed out of his mine assailant that not even a a 12 gauge will stop.

Ever see a crack or meth head that weighed more than 100 pounds??

 

[BSA1]

jimbo,

I related to everything you are saying about different comfort level living in country.

My Taurus M941 22 Magnum meets my daily needs here on our farm. Like you I have killed some rattlers and a occasion varmint. But I have no illusions about why all eight rounds may well be needed if forced to use it against a human attacker.

Some readers might dismiss my objections to use of 32's due to lack of experience with them. Right now I have loaded ammunition for all 5 C.F. 32 cartridges.

The 32-20 is hands down my favorite cartridge. I have won many bullseye shooting matches with it and a loaded 32-20 Carbine stands ready to go in a corner of the bedroom. I have a coffee can full of 32-20 reloads (500 + rounds). But I know that in a self-defense situation I am going to need every bit of that accuracy due to it's lack of knock down power.

But the world has changed for the worse. We had a nice friendly couple with a nice teenage daughter lived about 1/4 mile from us. We talked to them causally and my wife was considering hiring their daughter to do some babysitting for is. That is until he confessed to the serial murder of a lady about 5 miles down the road.

Like Kleanbore I have selected the 9mm for EDC. I have not made a final selection of what bullet I am going to use as Federal HST looks very interesting. I hope it will do the job if called on but I am very confident it will outperform any of my 32's.

 

[BSA1]

Rule3,

Even worse. I have dealt with meth heads whose teeth are rotted and their brain is so fried that they had low ability to reason and think logically. For them a gun pointed at them isn't a deterrence.

 

[jimbo555]

I agree BSA about the world changing. My fear is home invasions. I just hope the dogs give me enough warning to clear my head. Like everyone I'm always searching for that sweet spot handgun. Perfect size, weight, caliber and capacity.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by jimbo555: "...objective evaluation of ones real needs." That's where everyone has to decide for themselves what's best.

Of course, an objective evaluation must be coupled with an informed decision, and needs are just another word for requirements. What do you expect to do with your gun? What is it that you will require it to do?

My level of comfort is different than yours. Difference of opinion.

Unless it is base on an informed, objective evalutaion based on empirical data, a level of comfort means absolutely nothing.

I don't see a multitude of mousegun failures used in self defense.

Have you seen a multitude of successes?

 

[jimbo555]

It's easy to find 100's of successful cases of regular folks defending themselves with a 22lr.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

As far as the assertion that 32 cal is a weak round, it was strong enough to kill 2 very important people with one shot to each that started WWI 100 years ago. It was the same caliber gun that killed a US president 13 years earlier.

 

[pockets]

There are several factors that should be considered before using 100 year old calibers

You betcha...those 100 year old cartridge designs are the worst! Who would even use them?
.45acp - 1904
9x19 Parabellum - 1901
.38 Special - 1898
.45 Colt - 1872
.380acp - 1908
etc etc etc etc................

Even the .357 Magnum cartridge is 80 years old.


.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Gaucho Gringo: As far as the assertion that 32 cal is a weak round, it was strong enough to kill 2 very important people with one shot to each that started WWI 100 years ago. It was the same caliber gun that killed a US president 13 years earlier.

Already discussed in the other thread. The victims died from infections days after the shootings.

Lethality does not translate into effectiveness.

 

[antiquus]

My 632 with a 3" barrel (chosen for the 3" barrel, I did my homework) shoots 100gr American Eagle range fodder with 426ft/lbs of energy at 10'. I haven't seen anyone mention how small the cross sectional area of a .32 is. Something moving with that energy and a small cross section will penetrate very deeply. It's probably very likely hitting someone on a frontal shot will result in a nice sized exit wound. I don't understand the need of better penetration than that.

My .32H&R handloads hit at right around 240ft/lbs using a 83gr wadcutter. I have a .32acp load set up at around 185ft/lbs, which is the old European police load. Standard commercial loadings of this round have trouble getting to 120ft/lbs. I shoot .32acp out of 3 1/2 or 4" barrels, as the round like most .32 rounds needs some barrel length to build velocity.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Yeah, I can't wait to handload some 32 ACP and fire 'em out of a couple of CZ's I have. Gotta dust off the chrony for this one. Ah, so many toys, so little time...

 

[antiquus]

I have a CZ70 and an FEG AP7.65. I develop in the FEG a s the design was for the 380/9mm Mak and the 32 barrel is just thicker walled.

Try Titewad, very rewarding powder in tiny cartridges. Start around 2.2 gr and work up slowly, as this stuff is peaky, and things can change pretty dramatically with such a small volume,. Clean burning, so good unless you put at least a box down down the pipe it's not worth running a patch down the barrel. Amazing, especially after shooting Bullseye and Unique for years.

 

[Kleanbore]

Antiquus, thoughts of the .32 H&R Magnum had for some reason been churning in my mind before you posted. I cannot recall the reviews, but IIRC, it far out performed the .32S&W Long. And, of course, the round can be used in a .327 Federal Magnum revolver.

Sadly, neither has seemed to survive in the marketplace, and both are harder to find fodder for than a .38.

I never bought either one . I did not grasp the importance of that "all important sixth shot" until a couple of years ago; the importance of lower recoil on rapid shooting was lost on me; and I was concerned about the sound level of the .327.

I would not shy away for a second from carrying either one as a backup.

And who knows, maybe a good used one will turn up. Maybe a Ruger 101.

Thanks for the post.

 

[BSA1]

A six shot 32 magnum vs. five shot 38 in the J-Frame has always had a certain amount of appeal. In addition to the added firepower the 32 Magnum has less recoil which I think would appeal to female shooters with small hands and weak wrists along with as a bug. Just shows how finicky the gun market is.

Hornady offers their Critical Defense in the 32 Magnum but I have not tested in yet in my guns. Sounds like a promising winter project.

 

[Askeladden83]

Interesting thread.

I've been doing some similar research on the .32 S&W round.

New years eve i decided to try my 4th model S&W .32 anno ca 1885 by shooting at 2" wood. The gun is in good condition, tight and nice with just a little "pepper" in the bore.

My results with my handloads which consisted of 85 and 98 grain bullets loaded with pyrodex gave 7 out of 10 that penetrated completely and the ones that didn't took a different angle than straight forward, but totaled about 2".

I think loading this caliber with black powder or substitutes makes it hotter than modern commercial ammo... and the original thing from back in the day when they used balloon head cases was probably slightly hotter.

It's an interesting cartridge with very little information available and in my opinion it deserves a lot more respect than it gets.