338-06 vs 35 Wh
- Thread starter ExAgoradzo
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Float Pilot
Member
One thing nobody has mentioned yet is that you can use cast of jacketed 357-358 diameter pistol bullets in the 35 Whelen with reduced loads.
I have loaded some with low pressure powders like Trail Boss. A 158 grain cast gas-checked slug at 1600-1700 fps is pretty quite yet it still knocks the snot out of small game.
I have loaded some with low pressure powders like Trail Boss. A 158 grain cast gas-checked slug at 1600-1700 fps is pretty quite yet it still knocks the snot out of small game.
OP
OP
ExAgoradzo
Member
Unfortunately(?) Walmarts are not like McD's: all the same.
I tried to get the Handloader article. Can anyone post it? I found where I could get the cover of the mag...
Thanks for the opines brothers.
Greg
I tried to get the Handloader article. Can anyone post it? I found where I could get the cover of the mag...
Thanks for the opines brothers.
Greg
DM~
Member
And here I thought "I" posted some "real world difference" between the two, in post #8 ?
DM
To attempt to quantify ammunition availability, I went and looked at Midways USA:
.338-06: 6 loads available
.35 Whelen: 15 loads available
Another nice thing is that the .35 can be downloaded to .35 Rem levels, .357 magnum, or even .38 Spec levels and there are bullets available designed to actually perform at those velocity levels. Or you could push a .357 bullet hard and turn it into an explosive varmint-style bullet. The .35 Whelen is a fun round to play around with for a handloader.
.338-06: 6 loads available
.35 Whelen: 15 loads available
Another nice thing is that the .35 can be downloaded to .35 Rem levels, .357 magnum, or even .38 Spec levels and there are bullets available designed to actually perform at those velocity levels. Or you could push a .357 bullet hard and turn it into an explosive varmint-style bullet. The .35 Whelen is a fun round to play around with for a handloader.
LAGS
Member
I was thinking of making a Chamber Insert so I could fire 9mm's out of my Whelen ,as a single shot..
Shooting .32's with a chamber insert adapter out of my .308's is loads of low cost plinking and small game fun.
I take the .308 insert with me with some .32 S&W's when I hunt deer, because Squirrel is open at the same time.
They make less noise than a 22 out of my deer rifles.
The .338 doesnt give you options like that.
Shooting .32's with a chamber insert adapter out of my .308's is loads of low cost plinking and small game fun.
I take the .308 insert with me with some .32 S&W's when I hunt deer, because Squirrel is open at the same time.
They make less noise than a 22 out of my deer rifles.
The .338 doesnt give you options like that.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Try the Hammond Game Getter http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/
It's cheaper to shoot and costs about the same.
It's cheaper to shoot and costs about the same.
LAGS
Member
Thank you Vern,
But I want to shoot a Full, sized cartridge out of my barrel even if it is a few thousandths smaller than the bore.
I would try to make the .357 Mag. adapter, but the rim on a .357 Mag is almost the same size a a .35 Whelen Case Head.
A 9mm .380 9x18 or even a .38 super will work if done right.
The Game Getter is a 22 blank , propelling a lead buckshot ball.
It is fine, but not what I am trying to do.
Having it in a Standard pistol caliber, leaves you the option of carrying a sidearm of the same caliber especially in a survival situation.
But I want to shoot a Full, sized cartridge out of my barrel even if it is a few thousandths smaller than the bore.
I would try to make the .357 Mag. adapter, but the rim on a .357 Mag is almost the same size a a .35 Whelen Case Head.
A 9mm .380 9x18 or even a .38 super will work if done right.
The Game Getter is a 22 blank , propelling a lead buckshot ball.
It is fine, but not what I am trying to do.
Having it in a Standard pistol caliber, leaves you the option of carrying a sidearm of the same caliber especially in a survival situation.
35 Whelen
Member
I was faced with this same dilemma some 20 years ago. I went back and forth and finally decided on the Whelen because of the enormous bullet selection, from a 60-something gr. lead ball to a 310 gr. Woodleigh. A couple of deer and four bull elk later and I've not regretted my choice.
Ironically my father owns a 338-06 AI, a Whelen and a 9.3x62mm. Since the shooting range just happens to be at my house, I have been able to shoot all three quite extensively. To me the difference between the 338-06 and the Whelen is all but immaterial, but I'll take larger diameter bullet.
The 9.3, I think, just about maxes out the '06 case and the 286 gr. bullets, which is what I fired most, just seemed to kick the soup out of me. Very unpleasant and with velocities so low trajectories wouldn't have been much good. But back to the Whelen...
The bullet I ultimately settled on was the 225 gr. TSX. I was able to load it to 2700 fps, it consistently grouped 3/4" or less, and penetrated like crazy. In fact the only TSX I ever recovered was from a bull Dad had to shoot in the rear end. That bullet penetrated from the rump up into the right shoulder. My longest shot on an elk was with bullet and load and layered 355 yds. The bullet performed perfectly. In Dad's Whelen, a 700 Classic, I worked up a very accurate load running a 250 gr. Speer a little over 2500 fps. A surprisingly flat shooting load he wound up shooting a bull at a scant 44 yds. The bullet did an incredible amount of internal damage and blood literally gushed out of the exit wound.
So there's my opinion based on a little experience. And for what it's worth I wouldn't even put a 30-06 in the same conversation as these three cartridges.
35W
Ironically my father owns a 338-06 AI, a Whelen and a 9.3x62mm. Since the shooting range just happens to be at my house, I have been able to shoot all three quite extensively. To me the difference between the 338-06 and the Whelen is all but immaterial, but I'll take larger diameter bullet.
The 9.3, I think, just about maxes out the '06 case and the 286 gr. bullets, which is what I fired most, just seemed to kick the soup out of me. Very unpleasant and with velocities so low trajectories wouldn't have been much good. But back to the Whelen...
The bullet I ultimately settled on was the 225 gr. TSX. I was able to load it to 2700 fps, it consistently grouped 3/4" or less, and penetrated like crazy. In fact the only TSX I ever recovered was from a bull Dad had to shoot in the rear end. That bullet penetrated from the rump up into the right shoulder. My longest shot on an elk was with bullet and load and layered 355 yds. The bullet performed perfectly. In Dad's Whelen, a 700 Classic, I worked up a very accurate load running a 250 gr. Speer a little over 2500 fps. A surprisingly flat shooting load he wound up shooting a bull at a scant 44 yds. The bullet did an incredible amount of internal damage and blood literally gushed out of the exit wound.
So there's my opinion based on a little experience. And for what it's worth I wouldn't even put a 30-06 in the same conversation as these three cartridges.
35W
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's what the .35 Brown-Whelen is all about. It's a blown-out .30-06 case with a sharp shoulder pushed well forward. The guy I bought mine from said he only fired the full charge loads that came with the rifle when he got it -- "And it about kicked my head off" -- and stuck with cast bullet loads thereafter.
I developed a full charge load for it, and find it easy to shoot -- largely because it's heavy (about 10 lbs loaded with scope) and the man who built it, CW Ftich of Phoenix, knew how to stock a hard-kicking rifle.
OP
OP
ExAgoradzo
Member
So, it sounds to me as I suspected. There is precious little difference in the real world; there are those who prefer one flavor over another, but actually it will be a preference thing.
I just printed a bunch of data from different factory ammo companies on several loads including 'big' .30-06, .338-06, .35 Wh, and 9.3 x 62. I want to sit down and compare them on a chart. What so far it is missing is data on recoil and MPBR and the powder that goes into making the rifle go bang. All of these would be necessary (including the FPS/Energy at muzzle, 100, 200, and 300 (beyond that I don't care really)) to make a 'scientific' choice.
I've read enough in these posts to be excited about any of the above four calibers. As I noted above, for some reason, none of the other ones excite me very much.
If anyone has a chart like I noted I want to make I'd be interested in seeing it/adding to it.
If anyone has any other input on why I'm missing something by not considering these four, I'd love that as well.
If not, then reality is that whatever rifle presents itself and I have the cash, that's probably what I'd get.
God bless you all,
Thanks,
Greg
I just printed a bunch of data from different factory ammo companies on several loads including 'big' .30-06, .338-06, .35 Wh, and 9.3 x 62. I want to sit down and compare them on a chart. What so far it is missing is data on recoil and MPBR and the powder that goes into making the rifle go bang. All of these would be necessary (including the FPS/Energy at muzzle, 100, 200, and 300 (beyond that I don't care really)) to make a 'scientific' choice.
I've read enough in these posts to be excited about any of the above four calibers. As I noted above, for some reason, none of the other ones excite me very much.
If anyone has a chart like I noted I want to make I'd be interested in seeing it/adding to it.
If anyone has any other input on why I'm missing something by not considering these four, I'd love that as well.
If not, then reality is that whatever rifle presents itself and I have the cash, that's probably what I'd get.
God bless you all,
Thanks,
Greg
Unless you are a handloader, I'd also look at the cost of ammunition. As mentioned, Midway has 6 loads for .338-06, but they are all from Nosler and are $75/box. I'm sure there are others out there, but it would make me nervous that most of the ammo is supplied by one company at high cost. Both .35 Whelen and 9.3x62 have a variety of manufacturers supporting them with 20 rd boxes available in the high-20, low-30 $ range.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's highway robbery. Even with Nosler Partition Jackets, I can load my .35 Brown-Whelen for less than $25.00 a box.
Apparently you all like to talk without any facts. Fact 1, a 35-06 with the same powder as a 338-06 will outperform it at the muzzle, the only advantage of the 338 is bal coef. and bullet selection .35 is the most efficient caliber there is, fact 2, 35 Whelen AI is the most efficient cartridge period when Powder burned = energy at the muzzle.
An article in March/April 2005 Rifleshooter Magazine entitled Cartridge Efficiency, written by George W. Calef, proposes - "Forget about the highest power and velocity : which rounds produce the most with the powder they burn?"
I think Calef's article is somewhat flawed with errors of fact, some questions about logic, and and some ommisions (like straight walled cases like the 444 Marlin and the 45- 70 and other worthy efficient wildcats). However, his basic conclusions about 35s are no suprise to knowledgable 35 calibre fans. They confirm my own reflections on relative cartridge efficiency. Calef presents his findings;
"I put my money on the 7mm-08, the .284 Winchester, or the .308 Win., with the thought in the back of my mind that, just possibly, the wonderful little .250 Savage would beat them all. Boy was I astonished when the numbers started rolling in - suprised on several counts in fact - and I suspect you will be too.
To keep you from holding your breath any longer, the winner is the .35 Whelen. This venerable cartridge (a long time wildcat designed way back in 1930 in honor of Col. Townsend Whelen and finally legitimized in 1995 [note - error of fact - should read 1988] by Remington) delivers more kinetic energy and a higher L [Wooter's lethality index] factor per grain of powder burned than any other cartridge.
In Ackley's improved version it is even better, becoming the only cartridge on the list capable of generating more than 50 ft-lbs of energy and a L factor exceeding 5.00 at 200 yards for each grain of powder loaded.
What's more as a group, the .35s are all highly efficient, beating virtually every cartridge of smaller caliber. Even the obscure .358 Norma Magnum is the most efficient of the belted-magnum cartridges [note - by the author's own data the 350 Remington Magnum bests the 358 Norma]. This wonderful efficiency of the .35 calibers is especially remarkable when one considers that most all of these rounds are verging on obsolescence today. Take a look at the list of .35-caliber cartridges; do you or any of your friends shoot one? Luckily they are not entirely gone. In fact Remington reintroduced the splendid .350 Remington Magnum a couple of years ago in the model 600 carbine series."
I think Calef's article is somewhat flawed with errors of fact, some questions about logic, and and some ommisions (like straight walled cases like the 444 Marlin and the 45- 70 and other worthy efficient wildcats). However, his basic conclusions about 35s are no suprise to knowledgable 35 calibre fans. They confirm my own reflections on relative cartridge efficiency. Calef presents his findings;
"I put my money on the 7mm-08, the .284 Winchester, or the .308 Win., with the thought in the back of my mind that, just possibly, the wonderful little .250 Savage would beat them all. Boy was I astonished when the numbers started rolling in - suprised on several counts in fact - and I suspect you will be too.
To keep you from holding your breath any longer, the winner is the .35 Whelen. This venerable cartridge (a long time wildcat designed way back in 1930 in honor of Col. Townsend Whelen and finally legitimized in 1995 [note - error of fact - should read 1988] by Remington) delivers more kinetic energy and a higher L [Wooter's lethality index] factor per grain of powder burned than any other cartridge.
In Ackley's improved version it is even better, becoming the only cartridge on the list capable of generating more than 50 ft-lbs of energy and a L factor exceeding 5.00 at 200 yards for each grain of powder loaded.
What's more as a group, the .35s are all highly efficient, beating virtually every cartridge of smaller caliber. Even the obscure .358 Norma Magnum is the most efficient of the belted-magnum cartridges [note - by the author's own data the 350 Remington Magnum bests the 358 Norma]. This wonderful efficiency of the .35 calibers is especially remarkable when one considers that most all of these rounds are verging on obsolescence today. Take a look at the list of .35-caliber cartridges; do you or any of your friends shoot one? Luckily they are not entirely gone. In fact Remington reintroduced the splendid .350 Remington Magnum a couple of years ago in the model 600 carbine series."
Vern Humphrey
Member
As a long time user of the .35 Brown-Whelen let me point out the .35 Whelen (in all its variants), works on the magic of expansion ratios.
The bullet is driven down the barrel by expanding gas. As a gas expands, its pressure drops. Now, we want pressure to stay as HIGH as possible (within safety limits) for as long as possible. But pressure drops FASTER in the .35 caliber barrel than in the .30 caliber barrel (given equal weights of the same powder) because there is more volume per inch in the larger barrel.
To compensate for that, we burn MORE powder. More powder equals more energy. So the .35 Brown-Whelen can shoot heavier .35 caliber bullets almost as fast as a .30-06 can shoot lighter bullets.
The flaw, if any, is that the .30-06 case doesn't hold enough powder to take full advantage of the .35 caliber bore.
Enter the .35 Brown-Whelen, with it's blow-out case and sharper shoulder moved well forward. The .35 B-W offers a better balance between case capacity and bore size, and will get up and dance on the heels of a .338 Win Mag.
Another advantage is its smaller head size (.473") compared to the .338 Win Mag or .374 Holland and Holland (.532"). Bolt thrust is measured in pounds. To get pounds, multiply Pounds per Square Inch (breech pressure) times Head Area. At equal pressures, the .35 B-W will have less bolt thrust than the .338 Win Mag or the .375 H&H.
The bullet is driven down the barrel by expanding gas. As a gas expands, its pressure drops. Now, we want pressure to stay as HIGH as possible (within safety limits) for as long as possible. But pressure drops FASTER in the .35 caliber barrel than in the .30 caliber barrel (given equal weights of the same powder) because there is more volume per inch in the larger barrel.
To compensate for that, we burn MORE powder. More powder equals more energy. So the .35 Brown-Whelen can shoot heavier .35 caliber bullets almost as fast as a .30-06 can shoot lighter bullets.
The flaw, if any, is that the .30-06 case doesn't hold enough powder to take full advantage of the .35 caliber bore.
Enter the .35 Brown-Whelen, with it's blow-out case and sharper shoulder moved well forward. The .35 B-W offers a better balance between case capacity and bore size, and will get up and dance on the heels of a .338 Win Mag.
Another advantage is its smaller head size (.473") compared to the .338 Win Mag or .374 Holland and Holland (.532"). Bolt thrust is measured in pounds. To get pounds, multiply Pounds per Square Inch (breech pressure) times Head Area. At equal pressures, the .35 B-W will have less bolt thrust than the .338 Win Mag or the .375 H&H.
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