35 Whelen
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someguy2800
Member
Its neat.
ontarget
Member
I'm sure there are experts here to fill you in, but I believe it is a necked up 30-06. From what I hear its a pretty potent thumper. I have that on my caliber bucket list.
I've read about them since I was a kid. It's supposed to be very efficient. I saw an H&R chambered in it for $250 and managed to resist for the moment. If I can use pistol bullets to plink, I will snagged it up.
VoodooMountain
Member
You can load it to everything from 357 mag level loads up to loads used for African game such as Cape buffalo. Twist rate will dictate how well it does with the heavy loads though.
357 mag bullets can be used for plinking or small game in the light loads.
Recoil will depend on the load but most factory stuff would be around a 300wm or heavy 30-06.
I want to play around with one and may build a savage or a mauser.
357 mag bullets can be used for plinking or small game in the light loads.
Recoil will depend on the load but most factory stuff would be around a 300wm or heavy 30-06.
I want to play around with one and may build a savage or a mauser.
It and the 338-06 are both made from necked up 30-06 cases. I never bought 338-06 brass, simply ran 30-06 brass through the dies. The same can be done with 35 Whelen.
My brother and I both owned 35 Whelen at one time. With the bullet technology of the 1920's it offered some advantage over 30-06 on game larger than deer. In 2018 it is a step down from 30-06 with MOST bullets. Once you get up to 250 gr or heavier bullets it may offer a slight advantage at very close range on really large game. But if a 220 gr 30 caliber bullet won't get the job done it is time to go to 375.
With 200-225 gr bullets it's recoil is almost identical to 300 WM with 180-200 gr bullets. Get above 250 gr and recoil is greater than 300 WM.
Compared to 30-06 or 300 WM the 35 Whelen shoots bullets slightly heavier than 30-06 to the same speed. For example the Whelen will shoot 225's to about the same speed as 200's from a 30-06. Or the same bullet weights as 300 WM to the same speed. That is because in 35 caliber bullets of the same weight as 30 caliber bullets are shorter and capable of more speed at the same pressure.
Consider this illustration.
Once the bullets leave the barrel the larger caliber is a disadvantage in the same or similar weights. Assuming both bullets in the illustration are the same weight and construction, the LONGER bullet will always penetrate deeper. The LONGER bullet will retain speed much better as range increases.
The 30-06 shooting 200 gr bullets at the same speed as 35 Whelen 225's will show a little less energy at the muzzle. But give deeper penetration. As range increases the 35 caliber bullet will loose speed more quickly, beyond about 200 yards the 30-06 has the advantage in every way. And does it with less recoil.
If you fire the same bullet weights from a 300 mag at the same speeds, the 300 wins at the muzzle, and the gap widens as range increases. All with about the same recoil.
If you move up to 250-275 gr bullets in the Whelen you now start getting bullets that are heavier than available in 30 caliber and may see a slight advantage.
My brother and I both owned 35 Whelen at one time. With the bullet technology of the 1920's it offered some advantage over 30-06 on game larger than deer. In 2018 it is a step down from 30-06 with MOST bullets. Once you get up to 250 gr or heavier bullets it may offer a slight advantage at very close range on really large game. But if a 220 gr 30 caliber bullet won't get the job done it is time to go to 375.
With 200-225 gr bullets it's recoil is almost identical to 300 WM with 180-200 gr bullets. Get above 250 gr and recoil is greater than 300 WM.
Compared to 30-06 or 300 WM the 35 Whelen shoots bullets slightly heavier than 30-06 to the same speed. For example the Whelen will shoot 225's to about the same speed as 200's from a 30-06. Or the same bullet weights as 300 WM to the same speed. That is because in 35 caliber bullets of the same weight as 30 caliber bullets are shorter and capable of more speed at the same pressure.
Consider this illustration.
Once the bullets leave the barrel the larger caliber is a disadvantage in the same or similar weights. Assuming both bullets in the illustration are the same weight and construction, the LONGER bullet will always penetrate deeper. The LONGER bullet will retain speed much better as range increases.
The 30-06 shooting 200 gr bullets at the same speed as 35 Whelen 225's will show a little less energy at the muzzle. But give deeper penetration. As range increases the 35 caliber bullet will loose speed more quickly, beyond about 200 yards the 30-06 has the advantage in every way. And does it with less recoil.
If you fire the same bullet weights from a 300 mag at the same speeds, the 300 wins at the muzzle, and the gap widens as range increases. All with about the same recoil.
If you move up to 250-275 gr bullets in the Whelen you now start getting bullets that are heavier than available in 30 caliber and may see a slight advantage.
adcoch1
Member
I am building a 35 whelen at the moment, and have a thread going about it. The pistol bullets can shoot effectively in some rifles, once I get to load development I can report back. They are cool, and can really hit hard. I think the main advantage over the 30-06 is just diameter, and use with big cast bullets. Frontal area is quite a bit bigger than a 30 cal, but it is old school technology. They sure seem to be a hammer on bigger critters though, from the research I've done. Gonna find out for myself very soon.
Varminterror
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Using the pistol bullets in the Whelen is an interesting novelty, and it’s nice to have such a cheap option for some folks. Getting these short pistol bullets to stabilize is super easy. Not really anything interest to me, so I never did load them much for mine.
The Whelen is a wonderful short range deer hammer. On paper, the .30-06 does everything the Whelen can do, and in the field, the practical capabilities are the same - even better for the .30-06. Under 200yrds, the fatter 35cal bullets are hammers which just isn’t matched with the 30cals, despite similar velocity, weight, and energy. Penetration is better with the 30’s, of course, but either will pass through deer and elk. I’m personally losing my interest, if I haven’t already lost it, in the .30-06 case, but I’ve been shooting 06’s and it’s kids for too long to give up on it. If I were building another short to midrange deer and elk rifle, it would be a .338-06 over a 35whelen.
The Whelen is a wonderful short range deer hammer. On paper, the .30-06 does everything the Whelen can do, and in the field, the practical capabilities are the same - even better for the .30-06. Under 200yrds, the fatter 35cal bullets are hammers which just isn’t matched with the 30cals, despite similar velocity, weight, and energy. Penetration is better with the 30’s, of course, but either will pass through deer and elk. I’m personally losing my interest, if I haven’t already lost it, in the .30-06 case, but I’ve been shooting 06’s and it’s kids for too long to give up on it. If I were building another short to midrange deer and elk rifle, it would be a .338-06 over a 35whelen.
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I am primarily a paper puncher, but I do ask those who hunt their experiences with cartridges I own. The 35 Whelen performs well on game, the guy from whom I purchased my first 35 Whelen, shot Elk and Moose and said it did what he wanted to do.
If you are game hunting, then what you are doing with a firearm, is poking holes in creatures. I am of the opinion that the largest through hole is the most desirable, as that encourages fast blood loss. If the bullet hits the central nervous system, the paralysis induced with depend on location. A neck shot will stop body function, a low spine shot, and the animal can still crawl with its fore limbs. Blood loss is inevitably lethal. If it lives and breathes, make it bleed enough, and it will stop breathing. Loss of oxygen, from loss of blood, will kill the brain. Blood loss is a very positive means of killing the brain. A big bullet will make a big hole, and that is all to the good. Penetration is great, very desirable, but up to a point: once a bullet exits, it cannot inflict more damage on the animal.
I believe the shooting community has been indoctrinated to evaluate firearms and cartridges just as Gunwriters do, but they are shills, pushing product for the industry. They have had a century to perfect "a narcissism of small differences", when it comes to selling cartridges. They teach us to evaluate cartridges in ways that have very little to do with the practical limits of hitting an animal, or, the lethality of the bullet on target. Gunwriters are always touting high ballistic coefficients and high velocity, because these are easy to change, and the further the bullet travels, the greater the differences in bullet drop. This makes for great advertising copy. But, how many people can actually hit their target, first time, every time at 600, 700, 800, or 1000 yards? There is a reason the Range Masters at CMP Talladega make shooters start at 200 yards, because, very few can actually stay on the target at 300 yards, fewer still at 600 yards. They banned lever actions at 600 yards, and you can't shoot your lever action at 300 yards if you can't keep all your rounds in the black at 200 yards.
The Bullseye Pistol range, they make you qualify before you shoot at their $15,000 pistol targets at 25 and 50 yards. You have to keep ten shots on the standard full sized Bullseye pistol target (about 48 inch square) at each distance, before they they will let you shoot at the electronic targets. I was surprised the Range Master knew me by name, and I found out, it was because so few people had qualified. Last I asked, around 50 shooters have qualified. That is appalling, from what I read in magazines, and on the web, everyone is keeping all their pistol shots inside the hole of a donut at 50 yards.But in real life, not so.
Based on the number of times I have taken hunting rifles to the CMP Range, I am going to say, that 300 yards is a long way out there. I wish they had a 400 yard target because I would like to compare bullet drop. I do know, from decades of XTC shooting, it is 8 MOA up from 300 to 500 yards (with my 308 Win or 30-06) and 12 MOA from 300 yards to 600 yards. Someone can calculate mid range trajectory and plunging trajectory, and estimate the hit probability on an animal with a heart lung area about the size of a dinner plate. I am certain, the further the distance, the lower the hit probability, and it is probably not linear, might be an exponential reduction. One thousand yards, I would have to look up the amount of MOA from 100 to 1000 yards. It is a boat load of MOA. Accurate range estimates have improved with range finders, but you know, you still have to hit your target. And based what I have seen, regardless of caliber, most shooters will be all over the place at 300 yards, and most can't stay on an eight foot by eight foot target at 600 yards. Therefore, making comparisons between cartridges at 600, 700, 800, and 1000 yards, where the high ballistic bullets really shine, is just a meaningless paper exercise.
Out to 300 yards, with my 35 Whelens, with those poor ballistic coefficient 200 grain Federal fusion RN bullets, going at 2576 feet per second, with a 100 yard zero, it took 2 1/2 MOA up from 100 yards to be in the middle at 200 yards, and 6 3/4 MOA up from 100 yards, to be in the middle at 300 yards. I did get on target at 600 yards with those RN bullets, and it was around 30 MOA up from 100 yards, which is just awful. Out to 300 yards though, the difference in elevation between my 30-06's and this 35 Whelen is going to be within my hold, especially in field positions. My hunting rifles, off a bench, generally will hold 2 MOA for ten shot groups at 300 yards, which means all shots are within 6 inches at 300 yards. That is very adequate for hunting, but, I have never carried a 400 lb concrete bench into the woods for shooting support.
So my basic conclusion, out to 300 yards the trajectory of the 35 Whelen is in the same class at my 6.5 Swede, 270 Win, 308 Win, and 30-06 rifles. If the bullet expands, makes a big hole, it will be very lethal on whatever it hits. The extra mass of the bullet should make it penetrate well on big animals, even if it hits bone.
If you are game hunting, then what you are doing with a firearm, is poking holes in creatures. I am of the opinion that the largest through hole is the most desirable, as that encourages fast blood loss. If the bullet hits the central nervous system, the paralysis induced with depend on location. A neck shot will stop body function, a low spine shot, and the animal can still crawl with its fore limbs. Blood loss is inevitably lethal. If it lives and breathes, make it bleed enough, and it will stop breathing. Loss of oxygen, from loss of blood, will kill the brain. Blood loss is a very positive means of killing the brain. A big bullet will make a big hole, and that is all to the good. Penetration is great, very desirable, but up to a point: once a bullet exits, it cannot inflict more damage on the animal.
I believe the shooting community has been indoctrinated to evaluate firearms and cartridges just as Gunwriters do, but they are shills, pushing product for the industry. They have had a century to perfect "a narcissism of small differences", when it comes to selling cartridges. They teach us to evaluate cartridges in ways that have very little to do with the practical limits of hitting an animal, or, the lethality of the bullet on target. Gunwriters are always touting high ballistic coefficients and high velocity, because these are easy to change, and the further the bullet travels, the greater the differences in bullet drop. This makes for great advertising copy. But, how many people can actually hit their target, first time, every time at 600, 700, 800, or 1000 yards? There is a reason the Range Masters at CMP Talladega make shooters start at 200 yards, because, very few can actually stay on the target at 300 yards, fewer still at 600 yards. They banned lever actions at 600 yards, and you can't shoot your lever action at 300 yards if you can't keep all your rounds in the black at 200 yards.
The Bullseye Pistol range, they make you qualify before you shoot at their $15,000 pistol targets at 25 and 50 yards. You have to keep ten shots on the standard full sized Bullseye pistol target (about 48 inch square) at each distance, before they they will let you shoot at the electronic targets. I was surprised the Range Master knew me by name, and I found out, it was because so few people had qualified. Last I asked, around 50 shooters have qualified. That is appalling, from what I read in magazines, and on the web, everyone is keeping all their pistol shots inside the hole of a donut at 50 yards.But in real life, not so.
Based on the number of times I have taken hunting rifles to the CMP Range, I am going to say, that 300 yards is a long way out there. I wish they had a 400 yard target because I would like to compare bullet drop. I do know, from decades of XTC shooting, it is 8 MOA up from 300 to 500 yards (with my 308 Win or 30-06) and 12 MOA from 300 yards to 600 yards. Someone can calculate mid range trajectory and plunging trajectory, and estimate the hit probability on an animal with a heart lung area about the size of a dinner plate. I am certain, the further the distance, the lower the hit probability, and it is probably not linear, might be an exponential reduction. One thousand yards, I would have to look up the amount of MOA from 100 to 1000 yards. It is a boat load of MOA. Accurate range estimates have improved with range finders, but you know, you still have to hit your target. And based what I have seen, regardless of caliber, most shooters will be all over the place at 300 yards, and most can't stay on an eight foot by eight foot target at 600 yards. Therefore, making comparisons between cartridges at 600, 700, 800, and 1000 yards, where the high ballistic bullets really shine, is just a meaningless paper exercise.
Out to 300 yards, with my 35 Whelens, with those poor ballistic coefficient 200 grain Federal fusion RN bullets, going at 2576 feet per second, with a 100 yard zero, it took 2 1/2 MOA up from 100 yards to be in the middle at 200 yards, and 6 3/4 MOA up from 100 yards, to be in the middle at 300 yards. I did get on target at 600 yards with those RN bullets, and it was around 30 MOA up from 100 yards, which is just awful. Out to 300 yards though, the difference in elevation between my 30-06's and this 35 Whelen is going to be within my hold, especially in field positions. My hunting rifles, off a bench, generally will hold 2 MOA for ten shot groups at 300 yards, which means all shots are within 6 inches at 300 yards. That is very adequate for hunting, but, I have never carried a 400 lb concrete bench into the woods for shooting support.
So my basic conclusion, out to 300 yards the trajectory of the 35 Whelen is in the same class at my 6.5 Swede, 270 Win, 308 Win, and 30-06 rifles. If the bullet expands, makes a big hole, it will be very lethal on whatever it hits. The extra mass of the bullet should make it penetrate well on big animals, even if it hits bone.
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someguy2800
Member
All the talk of ballistic coefficients and sectional densities and deep penetration means nothing to me when my objective is to put holes in about 16" of deer at 150 yards.
adcoch1
Member
And this is why I will be working up some cast bullets loads. 100-150 yards, a 1800 fps 275grn bullet will knock down most everything I will ever hunt...
GooseGestapo
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- 6,149
I’ll second what Verminterra and slamfire said.
My .35’s are a .35Rem and a .358win.
Using reloads/handloads there is a ~100fps difference between the .35R and .358w using identical weight bullets.
There is about another 100fps difference to .35Whelen.
For many years ‘76-‘03, I dreamed of converting my MkX Mauser to .35W. But when things worked out, I ended up going to a .338/06 instead... ( that in turn led to two .338Marlins, but I digress...).
Having killed a medium size boatload of deer with the .35R and .35win, I can say unequivocally that up to ~200yds, the .35’s smack deer harder than an equivalent .30-something. In fact, the hardest I’ve ever hit deer is with the .35’s.
A .375Ruger only makes a bigger divot in the dirt behind most deer, and likewise a .45/70..., even a 12 or 20ga slug doesn’t produce a greater reaction to a solid hit.
Like Elmer Keith once said, and Jack O’Conner “sorta” agreed, the smaller bullets “work”, but the bigger bullets make them flinch more when you hit them.
However, how much is “enough”??? The last deer I killed was the one in my avatar. It took a Hornady .224” 60gr Spt “blem” from a Rem M7 at about 2,800fps at a lased 205yds.
It’s shot placement X3.
But for elk or moose up to 300yds, the Whelen will smack ‘em harder, and likely a shorter, wider blood trail than a .30 something. Which is the reason that the Whelen is still with us. Also, no need for some “trick” bullet, either. A 225gr Sierra for “long shots”and a 250gr Speer, Sierra, or Hornady for close in on BIG stuff.
The only problem with the Whelen is that because of the last sentence, IT’s BORING!!!
It just works...
My .35’s are a .35Rem and a .358win.
Using reloads/handloads there is a ~100fps difference between the .35R and .358w using identical weight bullets.
There is about another 100fps difference to .35Whelen.
For many years ‘76-‘03, I dreamed of converting my MkX Mauser to .35W. But when things worked out, I ended up going to a .338/06 instead... ( that in turn led to two .338Marlins, but I digress...).
Having killed a medium size boatload of deer with the .35R and .35win, I can say unequivocally that up to ~200yds, the .35’s smack deer harder than an equivalent .30-something. In fact, the hardest I’ve ever hit deer is with the .35’s.
A .375Ruger only makes a bigger divot in the dirt behind most deer, and likewise a .45/70..., even a 12 or 20ga slug doesn’t produce a greater reaction to a solid hit.
Like Elmer Keith once said, and Jack O’Conner “sorta” agreed, the smaller bullets “work”, but the bigger bullets make them flinch more when you hit them.
However, how much is “enough”??? The last deer I killed was the one in my avatar. It took a Hornady .224” 60gr Spt “blem” from a Rem M7 at about 2,800fps at a lased 205yds.
It’s shot placement X3.
But for elk or moose up to 300yds, the Whelen will smack ‘em harder, and likely a shorter, wider blood trail than a .30 something. Which is the reason that the Whelen is still with us. Also, no need for some “trick” bullet, either. A 225gr Sierra for “long shots”and a 250gr Speer, Sierra, or Hornady for close in on BIG stuff.
The only problem with the Whelen is that because of the last sentence, IT’s BORING!!!
It just works...
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DM~
Member
My experience with 35 cal. bullets at Whelen velocities, on the biggest big game (read moose and brown bear) was, they did NOT perform as well as .338 bullets out of a .338-06... SO, I chose to go with the .338-06 and it proved to be a good choice.
Now, that was LONG ago and bullets have changed since then, so with todays bullets maybe the gap has closed? But, "IF" it was me, I'd still use a premium bullet on moose and brown bear if I was using 35 cal. bullets...
For any animals smaller than moose, a 30-06 will do just as well, and with premium bullets, you can use lighter weight bullets, for quite a bit LESS recoil.
DM
Now, that was LONG ago and bullets have changed since then, so with todays bullets maybe the gap has closed? But, "IF" it was me, I'd still use a premium bullet on moose and brown bear if I was using 35 cal. bullets...
For any animals smaller than moose, a 30-06 will do just as well, and with premium bullets, you can use lighter weight bullets, for quite a bit LESS recoil.
DM
Offfhand
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In original post on this thread there was a request for "thoughts on a .35 Whelen" My thought is that you are wise to put the plan on your someday cartridge list and keep it there. The heyday of the Whelen seems to have been when it was a wildcat with a legendary name. Since it became a "legit" caliber much of that mystery has evaporated and it doesn't compare all that well with other rounds. I speak with more than a little authority because over the years I've had, and still have, a couple of beautiful Whelens, as shown in attached photos. One of them being a Whelen Improved. Yet after shooting both considerably, and working up excellent loads, I could never work up enough enthusiasm for the cartridge to take either rifle on a serious hunt. Preferring a .338 Win Mag, or something similar, for the job. Just the same, I'm glad there is a .35 Whelen because it gives us something to speculate on and harkens to a happy era.
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Husker Hunter
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I've never been around one, but have always wanted one. A Ruger Guide Gun 30-06 rebarreled to 35 Whelen seems like it would be pretty neat.
Those are beautiful rifles.
I already have more hunting rifles than I need. My hunting is limited to deer, hogs, coyotes and small game. This makes the Whelen more of a curiosity cartridge to me.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The .35 Whelen is a superb big game cartridge. Bigfoot Wallace, my personal "heavy" rifle is a custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen (the most radical form of the Whelen) and it drives a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket an honest 2,800 FPS. I've never killed a grizz or a brownie, but I wouldn't hesitate to use this rifle if I got the chance.
Nature Boy
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- Apr 21, 2015
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- 8,253
My .358 win scratches the .35 caliber itch but a .338-06 is something that interests me.
Then I remind myself that I have more deer hunting rifles than I can reasonably use and I put it on the back burner.
Then I remind myself that I have more deer hunting rifles than I can reasonably use and I put it on the back burner.
That's where I am. I have 11 deer rifles and am building a 280 Ackley at the moment. Something bigger than 8x57 would be cool though.
Ironhand54
Member
"A 30-06 will do everything a Whelen will do". Not always. If you are looking for a basic deer rifle then there is little difference. If you are looking for a rifle that can stop a buck, or a boar, or a bear without ripping your shoulder off get a Whelen.
Before you ask. Yes, I have shot deer with a 06 and a 358 Win and a Whelan. They all worked but the Whelan stopped them better. If I were building an all around rifle it would probably be a Whelen.
Just saying, the truth ain't always found in ballistic charts.
IronHand
Before you ask. Yes, I have shot deer with a 06 and a 358 Win and a Whelan. They all worked but the Whelan stopped them better. If I were building an all around rifle it would probably be a Whelen.
Just saying, the truth ain't always found in ballistic charts.
IronHand
DM~
Member
Only way to "stop" a bear, is to break them down...
A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's will do that just as well or better than a Whelen....and yes I've seen it done...
DM
A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's will do that just as well or better than a Whelen....and yes I've seen it done...
DM
Vern Humphrey
Member
I have to say my most memorable shot with my .35-BW was an elk that went down, and when I skinned him out, both front legs fell off. When you break both front legs and take out the heart and lungs, you can't ask any more of the cartridge.
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