Your opinion on the 35 Whelen. Better than 30/06?
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Kachok
Member
The 35 is only better on larger game like elk/moose the 06 is the clear winner for anything smaller seeing as it has a noticeably flatter trajectory, better ballistics, less recoil more then enough umph for any deer and you can get ammo at most hardware stores.
meanmrmustard
Member
Bullets, regardless of bore diameter, do not fare well traveling through brush. While they may hold together better, deflection in almost always imminent; pick your shots carefully, or wound the animal.
The bigger bullet in the haunch or extremity is either a wounding shot or a slow kill. Either way, the animal suffers.
Kachok
Member
Here is the deal with larger caliber "brush guns" don't let the name fool you they do not shoot well through brush, they are short barreled rifles that don't get hung on every vine and low hanging limb in our thick southern brush, they are frequently larger calibers because you never want to be blood tracking a deer through brush you have to crawl through. 30 through 35 caliber is the popular range. BUT the 35 Whelen does not make the popular brush gun list, that is often chamberd in full sized 24" barrel bolt guns, the 35 Remington, 350 Rem Mag, and more mild 358 Win are the more popular 35 caliber "brush guns"
Kachok
Member
Nope, the 35 is always going to have more energy then the 06, the powder just has a larger cross section to push against. However weather or not you NEED more power then the 06 already makes is another question, the 06 makes a suitable caliber for nearly any North American game animal pretty much everything shy of bison and brown bear. While too much gun IMHO for southern whitetail it's ideal range is probably 300-600lbs, anything under that it can make a mess of them anything over that I would ideally be reaching for a larger caliber (not that an 06 could not do the job). The 06 does handload very very well, I absolutely love mine.
Kachok
Member
BTW if you want more energy and heavier bullets then the 06 but don't want to give up any range they do make a 338-06 with all the energy of the 35 Whelen 250-300gr bullets and external ballistics on par with the high end 6.5mm-30cal match stuff.
at the muzzle maybe, but with better ballistic coefficient, the .30-06 will have the advantage at range...probably past 200 yards the .30-06 will have more energy than the .35 Whelen.
Thank you. Wonderful opinion. Keep em coming.
With modern 200-220 gr bullets the 30-06 outperforms 35 Whelen on big stuff. It outpenetrates. The slight energy advantage and bullet diameter of the 35 Whelen are a non-factor. In 1922 when the 35 Whelen was conceived it might have offered a slight advantage because of bullet technology of the day. But with modern bullets it offers no advantage over a properly loaded 30-06 in 2013.
Same with the 338-06. I've owned both rounds and still have the 338-06. They are both cool rounds that I like because they do work, and are something a bit different from what the masses use. But from a practical standpoint offer no advantages. In fact when you start looking at ammo for either they both have a lot of disadvantages.
If I needed/wanted more than a 30-06 offers I'd use either a 300 mag, which actually recoils LESS than 35 Whelen or 338-06, or go straight to a 375 mag.
Same with the 338-06. I've owned both rounds and still have the 338-06. They are both cool rounds that I like because they do work, and are something a bit different from what the masses use. But from a practical standpoint offer no advantages. In fact when you start looking at ammo for either they both have a lot of disadvantages.
If I needed/wanted more than a 30-06 offers I'd use either a 300 mag, which actually recoils LESS than 35 Whelen or 338-06, or go straight to a 375 mag.
Kachok
Member
Depends on the bullet, while 35 cals are not highly prized for stagering high BC values there are a few decent ones out there and there are poor BC bullets in 30 cal too, for an accurate comparison let's put them to the test with the same model bullet using heavyweights for both, I have my Nosler manual handy so lets try with the Partition a very popular and highly effective big game bullet. Trajectory is zeroed at 100yd, used 300 yards for the test, energy/trajectory
30-06 200gr Partition .481 BC max load at 2688fps
300yard: trajectory-14.5", energy 2068ft/lbs, speed 2158fps
35 Whelen 250gr Partition .446 BC 2506fps max load
300yd: trajectory -17.7" energy 2132ft/lbs, speed 1960fps
Now throw in the 338-06 with some slick modern bonded poly tips just for fun
338-06 225gr Interbond .515 BC 2700fps
300yd: trajectory -14.2" energy 2421 ft/lbs, speed 2202fps.
And remember the biggest advantage of the 35 cal is the larger frontal area of their bullets making a larger PWC not the energy they carry. Energy is great, but energy dispersion alone is a long way from the fatal wounding, if you don't believe that just slap yourself, you can "dump" a whole bunch of energy with a slap without doing any real physical damage.
If you want a medium bore rifle that will shoot heavier bullets fast and has more power than a 30-06 take a look at 375H&H. No it is not an Elephant rifle, no it will not vaporize an Elk. It is not all that different than 300 win mag, though the 375 does not have killer recoil.
My rifle will fire a 270gr bullet at 2700fps and has near enough the same point of impact as a 180gr 06 bullet at 300y. And hits with much more authority. The 375 is truly a very versatile round. You can download it to 35Whelen levels or load it hot with 300gr solids for dangerous game. One world, one 375H&H.
My rifle will fire a 270gr bullet at 2700fps and has near enough the same point of impact as a 180gr 06 bullet at 300y. And hits with much more authority. The 375 is truly a very versatile round. You can download it to 35Whelen levels or load it hot with 300gr solids for dangerous game. One world, one 375H&H.
Kachok
Member
The only real downfall of the 35 caliber is the lack of modern high BC bullets, an area where the 338s make them look silly with their .700BC Accubonds, 35s are not the only victim of that, 8mm and 9.3mm have also been sorely neglected in that regard.
I purchased a 35 Whelen and asked the last owner about the round as a hunting round. Basically it works fine. If the animal is hit with a 225/250/270 grain bullet it is going down. I believe he used it on deer, might have shot moose/elk as he has hunted those.
I can tell you the rifle kicks hard with those heavier bullets. The round is accurate enough for a hunting rifle, I would never shoot a 250 grain bullet prone in a long range match as it hurts enough shooting 190 grain bullets, therefore I am not going to test its capabilities as a target round.
My 35 Whelen worked best with IMR 3031. IMR 4064 is the slowest I would go in this caliber. I believe the slender shoulder cushions the firing pin blow, I used federal primers, the most sensitive on the market, and I sized the case to an exact fit between the case and chamber.
The 35 Whelen has held on because it is a good cartridge, pushes a bigger bullet than the 30-06, bigger is always better on game, and works fine out to 300 yards, which is far enough for most shooter's abilities.
I can tell you the rifle kicks hard with those heavier bullets. The round is accurate enough for a hunting rifle, I would never shoot a 250 grain bullet prone in a long range match as it hurts enough shooting 190 grain bullets, therefore I am not going to test its capabilities as a target round.
My 35 Whelen worked best with IMR 3031. IMR 4064 is the slowest I would go in this caliber. I believe the slender shoulder cushions the firing pin blow, I used federal primers, the most sensitive on the market, and I sized the case to an exact fit between the case and chamber.
The 35 Whelen has held on because it is a good cartridge, pushes a bigger bullet than the 30-06, bigger is always better on game, and works fine out to 300 yards, which is far enough for most shooter's abilities.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The R&D in bullet technology has led to the 30-caliber 180-grain bullets being as effective as the old days' 220-grain. I see no reason why a .30-'06 with 180s wouldn't be quite suitable for big elk and meese.
Messing around on my 500-yard range one day, I found that boat-tails of 150, 165 and 180 grains had nearly the same trajectory, striking within inches of each others groups around the center of the 22" steel plate. FWIW.
Messing around on my 500-yard range one day, I found that boat-tails of 150, 165 and 180 grains had nearly the same trajectory, striking within inches of each others groups around the center of the 22" steel plate. FWIW.
Kachok
Member
Saw a 180gr TSX 30-06 tested on 10% BG it had 42" of penetration with full expansion, 42" should get you a through and through on moose at most common shooting angles, and for deer that same load will go through them any way but lengthwise, all copper bullets don't have the remote fragmentation wounding of a Ballistic Tip, or the massive wound crater of my SGKs but everyone seems to think they have a wide enough wound tract for quick kills. The TSX seems to be the most efficient killer this side of Keith style hardcast and flat nose monolithic solids.
meanmrmustard
Member
Agreed.
The most through and through shots I've had on whitetails over 150 yards have been Barnes VorTx, in .223 Rem.
cal30_sniper
Member
The 35 Whelen has more energy potential than the '06 does. The bigger bore leaves the powder more room to expand, and gives a larger surface area for the powder to push the bullet down the bore with. This lets you load it "hotter" than an '06, even though they are the same size case.
The same effect is readily apparent in the 7x57 vs 8x57 Mauser comparison. Loaded to similar pressures, the 8x57 will push a 170grn bullet faster than the 7x57 can push a 140grn bullet.
By the same argument about bigger diameter bullets being worth nothing for killing power, there's absolutely no reason to have the .338 Win Mag, because the 7mm Rem Mag already exists. The bore diameter difference between those two cartridges is only slightly more than the diameter between the .30-06 and the .35 Whelen (.054 vs .050). The .338 launches a 225grn bullet only about 100fps slower than the 7mm launches a 175grn bullet. The 7mm cartridge has wonderful ballistic coefficients, but that's really only going to matter 300-400 yards downrange. Which one are you going to take on a Kodiak bear hunt?
Bigger bore cartridges with the same case capacity launch heavier bullets at faster velocities than smaller cartridges can, or launch heavier bullet weights at similar velocities as lighter bullet weights in smaller bore cartridges. In a lot of cases, those heavy weight bullets don't even exist in a smaller bore cartridge. A 250grn bullet launched from a .35 Whelen at similar velocities to a 220grn bullet launched from a .30-06 is going to have more stopping power. People still use 180grn bullets in the '06 rather than 150grn bullets for bigger game. Now imagine if you could have a 180grn bullet launch at the same velocity as the 150grn. Wouldn't you rather have that option than a slower 180grn? That's what the .35 Whelen offers at heavier bullet weights.
Don't kid yourself about the ballistic coefficients of the .308 cal heavy weight hunting bullets either. The highest BC I'm seeing in 220grn .308 bullets is in the .35-.36 range. A 225grn .358 Nosler Partition is listed as .443, and 250grn .358 Partition has a .446 BC. WAIT, what's that? A .35 Whelen can launch a 225 grn bullet with a BETTER BC as fast as a .30-06 can launch a 220 grn bullet?! Another cartridge might be able to something the '06 cant!? Oh my, the poles have shifted!
In all seriousness however, the .35 Whelen shines with heavier weight bullets than the '06. This makes it a more effective killer on larger game, particularly stuff that needs to be stopped right in its tracks before it gets the chance to bite back. Yes, the '06 is much better for deer sized game. That's not what the Whelen was designed for. Yes, there are more bullets available for the .308 diameter. Does that really matter though? You aren't going to be shooting all the bullets in the hunting catalog on your next hunting trip. There ARE good bullets available in .358 diameter, and you only need one.
The same effect is readily apparent in the 7x57 vs 8x57 Mauser comparison. Loaded to similar pressures, the 8x57 will push a 170grn bullet faster than the 7x57 can push a 140grn bullet.
By the same argument about bigger diameter bullets being worth nothing for killing power, there's absolutely no reason to have the .338 Win Mag, because the 7mm Rem Mag already exists. The bore diameter difference between those two cartridges is only slightly more than the diameter between the .30-06 and the .35 Whelen (.054 vs .050). The .338 launches a 225grn bullet only about 100fps slower than the 7mm launches a 175grn bullet. The 7mm cartridge has wonderful ballistic coefficients, but that's really only going to matter 300-400 yards downrange. Which one are you going to take on a Kodiak bear hunt?
Bigger bore cartridges with the same case capacity launch heavier bullets at faster velocities than smaller cartridges can, or launch heavier bullet weights at similar velocities as lighter bullet weights in smaller bore cartridges. In a lot of cases, those heavy weight bullets don't even exist in a smaller bore cartridge. A 250grn bullet launched from a .35 Whelen at similar velocities to a 220grn bullet launched from a .30-06 is going to have more stopping power. People still use 180grn bullets in the '06 rather than 150grn bullets for bigger game. Now imagine if you could have a 180grn bullet launch at the same velocity as the 150grn. Wouldn't you rather have that option than a slower 180grn? That's what the .35 Whelen offers at heavier bullet weights.
Don't kid yourself about the ballistic coefficients of the .308 cal heavy weight hunting bullets either. The highest BC I'm seeing in 220grn .308 bullets is in the .35-.36 range. A 225grn .358 Nosler Partition is listed as .443, and 250grn .358 Partition has a .446 BC. WAIT, what's that? A .35 Whelen can launch a 225 grn bullet with a BETTER BC as fast as a .30-06 can launch a 220 grn bullet?! Another cartridge might be able to something the '06 cant!? Oh my, the poles have shifted!
In all seriousness however, the .35 Whelen shines with heavier weight bullets than the '06. This makes it a more effective killer on larger game, particularly stuff that needs to be stopped right in its tracks before it gets the chance to bite back. Yes, the '06 is much better for deer sized game. That's not what the Whelen was designed for. Yes, there are more bullets available for the .308 diameter. Does that really matter though? You aren't going to be shooting all the bullets in the hunting catalog on your next hunting trip. There ARE good bullets available in .358 diameter, and you only need one.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"This makes it a more effective killer on larger game, particularly stuff that needs to be stopped right in its tracks before it gets the chance to bite back."
Fully agree. However, with limited exceptions, there isn't much worry about "bite back" in the vast majority of North American hunting.
But I sorta figure that in probable "bite back" country, the Whelen is a good starting point.
Fully agree. However, with limited exceptions, there isn't much worry about "bite back" in the vast majority of North American hunting.
But I sorta figure that in probable "bite back" country, the Whelen is a good starting point.
cal30_sniper
Member
I guess I should have put that in there too. The '06 with a 180grn bullet is a much more versatile cartridge, particularly for deer sized game, and will suffice even for the big dangerous stuff. The .35 is better for the bigger stuff and still kills the little stuff just as dead, at the expense of greater recoil and much much harder to find ammo. It really depends on the end user. If you live and hunt in Alaska, B.C, the Yukon, or northern Idaho/Montana, you might be best served with a .35 Whelen. Otherwise, the '06 is probably going to do most of the things you want to do more effectively. Then again, in most of the Southwest or Southeast, anything bigger than a .270 is overkill. Doesn't stop a lot of people from using .30-06s and .300 Win Mags though.
Kachok
Member
Also agreed, 35 cal is a decent starting point for stuff with big teeth and sharp claws 375 H&H starts looking really good at that point too.Fully agree. However, with limited exceptions, there isn't much worry about "bite back" in the vast majority of North American hunting.
But I sorta figure that in probable "bite back" country, the Whelen is a good starting point.
I don't think I have ever seen so much agreement on any thread in all my time on THR
Dr T
Member
A couple of comments.
On Bore diameter:
As Cal30 mentioned, if you have the same basic case (as the 270, 30-06, and 35 Whelen do) and the same bullet weight, the same amount of powder will launch the larger bore bullet at a higher velocity. I think that this is because the coefficient of friction is lower with the larger bore.
On Brush Guns:
A number of years ago, either Handloader or Rifle did an article comparing cartridges performance in brush. The general conclusion was that the tendency to deflection went down as sectional density and velocity went up. Thus, a 300 Wthby Mag with 180 grain bullets is better at "busting" brush than a 30-30 with 170 grain bullets. I have demonstrated this to be true to my satisfaction while hunting the short grass prairie on the western side of the Edwards Plateau. I have also observed that if you hit a mesquite trunk greater than 1 inch diameter, you are probably going to miss (I have "killed" more than one mesquite).
On Recoil.
I have found that I would a rather shoot my 30-06 with 180 grain bullets (at 2650 fps) or my 375 H&H with 270 grain factory loads than my 35 Whelen with 250 grain bullets at 2500 fps. About 225 grains in the 35 Whelen is about all I can stand.
On Bore diameter:
As Cal30 mentioned, if you have the same basic case (as the 270, 30-06, and 35 Whelen do) and the same bullet weight, the same amount of powder will launch the larger bore bullet at a higher velocity. I think that this is because the coefficient of friction is lower with the larger bore.
On Brush Guns:
A number of years ago, either Handloader or Rifle did an article comparing cartridges performance in brush. The general conclusion was that the tendency to deflection went down as sectional density and velocity went up. Thus, a 300 Wthby Mag with 180 grain bullets is better at "busting" brush than a 30-30 with 170 grain bullets. I have demonstrated this to be true to my satisfaction while hunting the short grass prairie on the western side of the Edwards Plateau. I have also observed that if you hit a mesquite trunk greater than 1 inch diameter, you are probably going to miss (I have "killed" more than one mesquite).
On Recoil.
I have found that I would a rather shoot my 30-06 with 180 grain bullets (at 2650 fps) or my 375 H&H with 270 grain factory loads than my 35 Whelen with 250 grain bullets at 2500 fps. About 225 grains in the 35 Whelen is about all I can stand.
This discussion has been around the barn a few times. The 35 is better for bigger animals at shorter ranges the 30/06 is gonna shoot a little flatter. Bottom line is that for any critter in north america neither is a bad answer. Given two rifles one 30/06 one 35 Whelen I'd let you pick first and take whichever is left.
One thing i always thought was cool about 35s would be the ability to shoot light loads with 158gr 357 bullets.
One thing i always thought was cool about 35s would be the ability to shoot light loads with 158gr 357 bullets.
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