351 WINCHESTER
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I knew that was too good to be true. I have read that the bullets are .357 & .355 so I guess it's anybody's guess right now.
350 legend Winchester
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DM~
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I do believe they will end up being .355" in the factory loads...
DM
DM
DM~
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I'd like to know that one myself!
To me, just about everything seems strange about this cartridge!
The only thing I can think of is, it head spaces on the case mouth, maybe they are trying to keep the brass thicker there??
DM
troy fairweather
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i don't think they want guys reloading for it, not many .355 bullets will handle the speed, so they will make over pried bullets that are more then loaded ammo. i mean winchester really could off had a winner, if it was a true 223/357 round.
someguy2800
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The saami drawing shows bullet diameter is .357”
https://www.nssf.org/saami-announces-acceptance-350-legend-cartridge/
Before you get too excited about using up your stock of revolver bullets, I have found with my 357 maximum, few 357 bullets are happy at 55,000 psi anyway, the jackets are too thin and most of the explode at impact velocities over 2000 FPS. If you want cheap downloaded plinkers hornady xtp’s or Sierra JSP’s will work, but there will be purpose made bullets for this cartridge that have better aerodynamics and jackets meant to expand at 2000 FPS rather than 1000. It will be all the better for it vs. trying to shoot a revolver bullet at rifle velocities, especially if you intend to deer hunt with it. The ideal bullet for this cartridge was the hornady 180 SSP (single shot pistol) but they were discontinued. I eagerly anticipate that bullet being made again for this cartridge!
https://www.nssf.org/saami-announces-acceptance-350-legend-cartridge/
Before you get too excited about using up your stock of revolver bullets, I have found with my 357 maximum, few 357 bullets are happy at 55,000 psi anyway, the jackets are too thin and most of the explode at impact velocities over 2000 FPS. If you want cheap downloaded plinkers hornady xtp’s or Sierra JSP’s will work, but there will be purpose made bullets for this cartridge that have better aerodynamics and jackets meant to expand at 2000 FPS rather than 1000. It will be all the better for it vs. trying to shoot a revolver bullet at rifle velocities, especially if you intend to deer hunt with it. The ideal bullet for this cartridge was the hornady 180 SSP (single shot pistol) but they were discontinued. I eagerly anticipate that bullet being made again for this cartridge!
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Specifically 0.3570 - 0.003, so 0.354 to 0.357 (average 0.3555)
In comparison, for the .308 Winchester they show 0.3090 - 0.003, so 0.306 to 0.309 (average 0.3075), for the 35 Whelen they show 0.3590 - 0.003 (0.356 to 0.359, average 0.3575).
Varminterror
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I’m guessing it is the 450 Bushmaster theory (contrasted against 458soc principles)- use pistol caliber bullets so guys will be attracted to inexpensive plinking bullets, then drive development of a handful of serviceable hunting bullets. Not really so complicated.
It’s not so difficult to draw a .357” bullet down to .355” either - while it’s quite a challenge to swage a .355” up to .357”...
It’s not so difficult to draw a .357” bullet down to .355” either - while it’s quite a challenge to swage a .355” up to .357”...
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DM~
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The factory loads the guy that sent me the specs said the bullets in his box were .355"...
The chambers/bbls will also accept .357" loaded in the cases, so no need to draw a .357" bullet down to .355"...
DM
The chambers/bbls will also accept .357" loaded in the cases, so no need to draw a .357" bullet down to .355"...
DM
Gtscotty
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Lol, It's not complicated, it just seems like a bad idea. They could do all of that starting with nominal .357 bullet size instead of 9mm. 9mm bullet availability isn't going to draw anyone in, the selection of suitably tough and or heavy 9mm bullets pales in comparison to the same in .357. They could still come out with a handful of specially developed bullets if they wanted to, it just wouldn't be as critical to the survival of the chambering, and no one would be the least bit concerned about swaging 9mm bullets up for a case that already had plenty of better options.
Edit: Nevermind, actually looking at the SAAMI drawings, the .350 is sized for .357 bullets, just with a slightly tighter bore, probably to help with accuracy. .357-.003 for the .350 L and .358-.003 for both the .357 Mag and .38 special. Much to do about nothing, they didn't make a stupid after all.
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someguy2800
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No matter if it is .355 or .357 bore its not going to make any difference assuming the throat is large enough to take either. I've shot .355 bullets in a .357, and I've shot .357 bullets in a .355. The gun doesn't care, they all obturate the same. Cast bullets need to be larger than bore size but outside of that jacketed bullets don't really care. My 1898 krag with its bore that ranges from .311 to .314 from end to end shoots better with .308 bullets than it does with .312" bullets. Go figure.
Varminterror
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I think you are grossly mistaken in this statement. Very few people buy firearms to hunt any more, and the preferential success of the 450 Bushmaster over the 458 Socom has proven folks will migrate to AR rounds chambered for pistol bullets over a rifle bullet...
Gtscotty
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Grossly mistaken in my assessment that the compatibility of a new rifle cartridge (explicitly intended for hunting) with 9mm pistol bullets instead of heavier, tougher, more velocity appropriate .357 pistol bullets isn't somehow an asset that's going to cause customers to jump into line, wallet in hand? I don't think so.
It's a moot point either way, because Winchester made the obviously correct choice to go with a bore size that accommodated more appropriate existing .357 pistol bullets.
People migrated to the Bushmaster in larger numbers recently because it meets the deer hunting regs in certain states where many other rifle rounds are prohibited. Nothing to do with pistol vs rifle bullets, and certainly not indicative of very few people buying firearms for hunting anymore, in fact, quite the opposite.
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someguy2800
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If you intend to hunt with it, 9mm and 38 pistol bullets would both be poor choices with only a couple exceptions. Neither will hold up at the max velocities you can get from this. It will turn a 158 xtp to shrapnel unless you back it off to about 1800-1900 FPS max. The best currently available is probably the 180 xtp which also works best under 1800-1900 FPS. Just as with the 450 bushmaster you’ll be better off buying the purpose built bullets that will be available for it for hunting, and save the pistol bullets for plinking.
someguy2800
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I have a 357 maximum which is where I learned this through testing. There really isn’t an ideal bullet for the 357 max. The best is probably the 180 xtp, but you can overpower it even in pistol barrels. My 13” 357 max will drive a 180 xtp to 2200 FPS, but the bullet won’t hold up well at those speeds. The next best option is a 180 Speer hot core which is a .358 bullet for the 35 Remington. That one is a little hard for 357 maximum but should work really nice for the 350 legend going mabey 2300 FPS or so.
There are very few bullets that work well which is why I’m really excited for this. I don’t want the 350 legend, I want the bullets that are going to be made for it to load in my 357 maximum.
There are very few bullets that work well which is why I’m really excited for this. I don’t want the 350 legend, I want the bullets that are going to be made for it to load in my 357 maximum.
mcb
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I agree if the cartridge takes off the bullets will be there. 450 Bushmaster is a great example of that and I have sized .458 bullets down to .452 for my 450 BM.
But if 350 Legend is truly a .355 caliber cartridge rather than what many assumed was going to be .357 caliber cartridge that causes a problem for Ohio hunters and maybe a few other states. Ohio hunting regulation very specifically states that to be a legal handgun or rifle cartridge it has to be straight walled and .357 caliber or larger. I grew up in Ohio and have asked specifically if 9x19mm was legal for deer and was told no; I asked about 38 special and was told yes. When Ohio say, ".357 or larger" they mean, ".357 or larger."
The SAAMI specs for the cartridge do seem a bit strange when you compare both the bullet diameter and bore and groove specs to other common .355, .356, .357, .358 caliber cartridges. It seems from the specs you could argue many of those are acceptable but it sure looks like the best argument is this is likely .355 diameter.
Llama Bob
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This is the key point. It's a solution to a legal problem, not a technical one. From a technical perspective it's questionable at best with the 180gr power point load barely edging into the bottom end of deer territory in terms of sectional density (only 0.2). But if you want to hunt deer in a straight wall state, and you're glued to the small AR platform to do it (why???) then it's your cartridge.
Llama Bob
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I can get on board with that. The supply of mid-velocity .35 caliber bullets is poor, and this may help.
mcb
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Are you saying 350 Legend shooting a 180gr 35 caliber bullet at ~2100 fps (over 1700 ft-lbs of muzzle energy) is margin for whitetail deer?
sabbfan
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I was pretty interested when I first heard about it, but the more I read the more I think I will just stick to my 357 mag Henry for my deer hunting. It hasn’t let me down yet and I don’t think the increase in velocity will be that much of benefit for my hunting since it’s mostly close shots. If I’m going to step up in caliber I think I’d rather go to a 44 mag lever since I reload for that caliber as well already.
gotboostvr
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Varminterror
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A 22LR will reliably kill a deer under the right conditions, so context is everything...
But a 180grn 35cal has terrible sectional density - it doesn’t kill nearly as well as its weight would suggest.
I shoot 180grn 35cal pills at 1850ish from a Redhawk, rifle bullets even - it’ll kill a deer at 300yrds under perfect conditions, but for the energy and mass you’re moving, it loses velocity fast and doesn’t penetrate nearly as well as it could. For a short range hammer, I’d stoke up a heavier pill.
mcb
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I think the context is getting us here. I suspect you and Llama Bob are considering shooting deer at much great ranges than I am thinking the 350 Legend is going to be use for. I think 350 Legend is going to be like 450 Bushmaster; it going to be a good 200 yards or less straight-wall cartridge.
I personally have never shot a deer at more than about 120 yards. So for me I see 350 Legend as a perfectly acceptable deer cartridge, far more cartridge than I have used at times in the past. I have killed them with cartridges below 700 ft-lbs with both with heavy for caliber 200 gr 10mm bullets from a handgun and 410 slugs (that are exceptionally light for caliber) that have sectional densities well below .1 and when I did my part (got close and put the shot where it counts) they worked.
I am still curious if its .355 or .357 only because I still have land to hunt back in Ohio and as silly as it is that .002 inch is going to be the difference between 350 Legend being legal or illegal in Ohio unless Ohio changes their laws.
Unfortunately if Winchester says it a .355 caliber cartridge it won't mater what diameter bullet you jam in there it will still be illegal for deer in Ohio.
Gtscotty
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I really don't think you'll have a problem with Ohio stating that it isn't a qualifying cartridge using .357" bullets, it's specified right on the SAAMI drawing, closer to the .357 Mag with jacketed bullets than it is to the 9mm, although they all share the same bore and groove diameter.
Screen shots of the SAAMI drawings:
Screen shots of the SAAMI drawings:
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