.356tsw?

[Nightcrawler]

Anybody heard of a .356TSW round? My CDNN catalog is advertising this ammunition on the back page. 147 grain FMJ stuff, $9.99 for 50 rounds or $199.80 for 1,000 rounds. It's obviously a 9mm round of some kind, but I've never heard of it. There are a LOT of 9mm rounds out there. .380, 9x19mm, 9x21, 9mm Ultra, 9mm Largo (I think this is the same as 9x21), 9x23mm Winchester, 9x25mm Dillon, on and on...

 

[caz223]

I don't know the specs on it, but I'd speculate that it's similar to 9x25 dillon or 357SIG.
I think the TSW stands for Team Smith and Wesson.
***EDIT***
I lied to you.
It resembles 9x21
Ammoman has a pic of some right now.

 

[PCRCCW]

The caliber was made by S&W for a PC s/auto that is like the Shorty Forty and such. It was a "better mousetrap" according to S&W but never took off....There is ammo in UT for ccchhheeaapp.
Shoot well

 

[Mike Irwin]

You'd probably have more problems finding guns for it than the ammo.

IIRC it was a somewhat longer case and hotter round than the .38 Super to allow safe making of Major.

Didn't really go anywhere.

 

[Sean Smith]

Basically inferior to 9x23 in every way... hence 9x23 is a niche caliber, and .356 TSW is just plain dead.

 

[Nightcrawler]

And how does 9x23 compare to .357 Sig? I suspect both are inferior to the 9x25 Dillon, since the Dillon round is based on the 10mm case.

 

[Robert inOregon]

From a fully supported chamber the argument for the wonder nines is moot.

Smith & Wesson developed the 356 TSW in order to have a cartridge that majored without having to resort to a large frame handgun. To make a long story short, the cartridge was disallowed in competition and died quick. It is still somewhat in use in Europe and S&W still makes guns chambered in this round for that market. But its a dog with flees on this side of the pond.

 

[Sean Smith]

9x23 produces superior ballistcs to .357 Sig... and can be handloaded to far exceed it safely. More significantly, it was designed specifically to be reliable in the 1911 platform (same OAL as .45 ACP, nice tapered shape, no semi-rim like .38 Super, etc.) The standard Winchester practice load in 9x23 is 124gr @ 1,500 ft/sec. Pushing 147gr bullets to 1,400 ft/sec is no big deal in 9x23. 9x25 can produce better ballistics, but while Winchester still makes relatively affordable ammo for 9x23, nobody makes factory ammo for 9x25... it is a genuinely dead caliber. And if you need more ballistics than 9x23 (which can match most "real" .357 Magnum loads), you are better off with 10mm anyway.

Of course, all of these calibers are alot less mainstream than 10mm, which is saying quite a bit if you think about it.

 

[Poohgyrr]

For info tidbit, a few years ago I meet a guy CCW'ing a PC Centennial in .356TSW. We had some fun comparing it to my 640-1. IIRC, Team S&W used this caliber for a while.....

 

[TaxPhd]

In what competition was the TSW disallowed?

 

[Fortyfied]

And how does 9x23 compare to .357 Sig? I suspect both are inferior to the 9x25 Dillon, since the Dillon round is based on the 10mm case.

The 9x25mm Dillon being based on the 10mm Auto case would supposedly have a SAMMI max pressure of 37500psi. The .357Sig is rated at 40000psi by SAMMI. On the face of it the .357Sig is ahead, but as Smokey Yunnick said; "More GAS!!!"
The 9x25 case makes more gas.
I form 9x25 cases from cut down Starline 10mm Magnum brass which they rate at 43000psi. Barrels are available for Glock model 20 from www.BarSto.com
Dies are available from www.rcbs.com www.ch4d.com and www.dillonprecision.com
I use .357Sig handloading data as a starting point for my loads. I use a wide variety of slower powders. Bullets from 102gr to 158gr in .355, .356, and .357 diameter work just fine in my Barsto 6inch .356 barrel. 9x25mm Dillon isn't dead, this wildcat is simply no longer in favor with most competitors.

 

[Robert inOregon]

In what competition was the TSW disallowed?

Back in the day major power factor was 175 (124 gr projectile at 1400 FPS as an example) and 356 TSW couldn't produce those numbers (safely or without guns falling apart!). At the time S&W failed to produce enough guns or get the attention of ammunition makers and IPSC's governing body in the US prohibited their use in limited class competition. I believe power factor has been lowered to 165 now, which is a little late for the TSW cartridge.

 

[TaxPhd]

IPSC mandated .40 cal. for major in Limited, and banned 9mm para major (hence the somewhat short-lived interest in 9x21), but I am pretty sure the TSW wasn't banned, per se. It simply wasn't as popular as the Super and Supercomp.

 

[Handy]

So no one is using .38 Super or any other 9mm in IPSC anymore due to the .40 rule?


I understood that the main thing that "killed" 9x25 is throat erosion. High volume IPSC shooters were wearing out barrels too quickly just practicing, and frame battering was a factor as well.

9x25 is neat magnum, but 10mm is neater.

9x23 is supposedly interchangeable with .38 Super in some modern guns.

 

[TaxPhd]

The .40 cal rule is for limited. In open, the various forms of 38 Super still dominate.

In some guns, it can be interchangable. Usually depends on extractor tension, as 9x23 and Supercomp are rimless, 38 Super is semi-rimmed.

 

[Sean Smith]

Looking at my USPSA manual, "Open" doesn't have the .40 minimum for major, but most other classes do. Hence .40 S&W has kind of taken over to an extent. 10mm would be better in some respects for all those 1911 pattern guns, but .40 S&W brass is so much cheaper that it is easier just to make long OAL handloads in .40 S&W to get it to run right.

 

[TaxPhd]

While throat erosion is indeed a factor, mag capacity is what killed it. More rounds in the mag for the various 38 Supers compared to 9x25, 357Sig, etc. that are based off of fatter 40 S&W or 10mm cases.

 

[Robert inOregon]

USPSA and Smith & Wesson had a deal and USPSA reneged during the middle of production of the cartridge. Lots of bad blood between the two to this day. The forty caliber minimum did not happen till later.

As for the cartridge being used in Unlimited, it simply was not competitive. The 356TSW was built on a 9mm platform, fifteen round magazine and no compensator (only Briley made the comp gun and not S&W). Against a larger and heavier 45acp frame, twenty round magazine and compensator. Games are survival of the fittest and the smaller gun that could simply couldn't.

This is a picture of the Briley unlimited S&W.


http://www.westall.com/BRILEY_S&W_356TSW.html

 

[TEX]

The 356TSW was a slighly tapered (full length taper, not bottle neck) 9x21.5 mm case that Smith and Wesson developed to make major. From what I have been told, it will fit in most guns than handle 9x19, with the right barrel of course, and can be loaded a little hotter than the 9x19 or 9x21.

The 9x23 is vastly superior, but is not designed to fit in handguns that can barely fit a 9x19. The 9x23 has a much thicker case web and can take much higher pressures than the other 9s. A 9x25 is total different animal. It's like the bottle necked 356SIG, but starts with a 10mm case instead. I had a chance to fire one once and it was pretty nice, but seemed noticably louder.

 

[Poohgyrr]

I still think an accurate single action, with the twenty round mags that are avaiable, in .356 TSW is a good thing. It could easily be adapted to a CCW role. If 9mm is good, then .356TSW should be better. I'm not saying any one round is better than another, just that I'd really like the option.

Either of these would work too:

 

[Dr.Rob]

This means you aren't going to find a surplus box of .356TSW in a back alley in Doha.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Especially since Nightcrawler saw the add over 3 years ago........

 

[Poohgyrr]

But I have factory ammo and Midway & Starline's phone numbers & a credit card.

 

[Desertscout]

We re-chambered a Glock 19 to .356TSW for a guy a couple of years ago and he really loves it.

 

[356Owner]

I have a .356 TSW that was purchased from Lew Horton back in the early '90s for use in IPSC competition.

I did use it in a number of matches in Virginia before I moved out of state and stopped competing.

The gun was allowed in IPSC competition at that time and did make major with no problem, either with a Federal 147 gr TMJ or my own reloads.

The gun was very well made and quite nice to shoot. Very accurate and easy to handle given the power of the round.

I remember one match in particular at Quantico where the steel poppers were set a little hard and some people shooting Minor were having trouble knocking them down unless they hit well above the line. I came through and sent all the steel flying down like it was nothing. Everybody was saying what the heck did you just shoot at those things. A number of people stopped by later to look at the gun.

An interesting point was that the Federal hollow points that I bought for it were loaded to produce substantially lower velocities than the TMJ round. I called Federal and was told that the Frangible jackets were breaking apart prior to impact if loaded to the same velocity as the TMJ.

I also heard from Lew Horton that the Secret Service were carrying a compact version of the .356 for their duty weapon. Never had this confirmed.

Another thing that helped kill the .356 was the high capacity magazine ban. What's the point of using a smaller caliber to get a higher capacity if you can't use it anyway?