357 mag H-110 issues

[Jessesky]

Hey Guys,

At the range today testing some load developments:

S&W 586 no dash 6”
16gr H-110
Speer 158gr JHP
CCI magnum primer
Starline casings
Heavy roll crimp
40 degrees Fahrenheit outside

Velocities:
1196
1251
1180

The recoil was substantially more than the factory loads I compared them to and a big muzzle flash. The primers were not flat in any way either. For a 6” barrel and the “feel” of shooting them, these velocity figures seem way too low. I was expecting closer to 1350+ at least. Any thoughts?

 

[243winxb]

Barrel length and if vented , makes a difference.

SAAMI thinks 1220 fps.

 

[brasscollector]

I was playing with my 6" 357 a couple weeks back, 158swc and 4227. I believe ~1200fps is about where I ended up velocity-wise, maybe less. It's enough oomph that you know you're not firing 38 special anymore. Some of the load data that is published has quite a bit of blue sky in the results. Well, I should clarify.. there's a lot of blue sky in it if you're thinking your revolver is going to duplicate the velocities. A "test barrel" has no gap to bleed off pressure and a carbine is going to give any 'handgun' cartridge a huge crutch, velocity-wise.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

With the same gun I around 1300fps with 16.6gr. H110 with 158 grain Hornady or Speer JHP's.
For whatever reason a lot of 357 mag data shows very optimistic velocities.

 

[243winxb]

Lead is faster. S&W barrel/cylinder gaps run .004" to .009" Bigger gap= Slower.

 

[cheygriz]

I never tried to load a jacketed bullet that heavy in a .357.

My cast lead (wheelweights) bullets chrono 1325, but that's not a jacketed bullet.

My 6 inch Security Six chronos 1625 with 125 Remington JHP and H110.

1200 seems low though even for those heavy "punkin balls."

 

[Jessesky]

It’s true, it’s easy to forget that test barrels are 10” and no porting from the cylinder gap, but I must say I was hoping for a little more performance. 1400 fps is my desired velocity after I develop these loads. This is the load I was replicating, and this is from a real world non-lab test. I thought his figures were high for 16gr and 4.6” barrel. With his barrel length he is most likely using a revolver. Based on that, I thought I’d at least hit the 1400fps mark

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you want more velocity push the charge up to the limits of H110/W296. Lyman lists higher charges than you used. BUT if it were me I would find the most accurate load around the charge you are using stopping at the limits instead of worrying about velocity. All the velocity in the world will do you no good unless you hit what you shoot at.

The flash is very normal for that powder. Your velocities are not out of line with that charge.

 

[243winxb]

Jacketed bullets between brands are not all the same.

Copper Jacket thickness- thicker, more pressue, more velocity..

The lead core may be pure, or hardened with antimony. Harder lead core, more pressure and velocity.

How deep the bullet shank is in the case . Its set by the bullet cannelure. Deeper, more pressure.

This is when using the same powder charge.

 

[Jessesky]

Jacketed bullets between brands are not all the same.

Copper Jacket thickness- thicker, more pressue, more velocity..

The lead core may be pure, or hardened with antimony. Harder lead core, more pressure and velocity.

How deep the bullet shank is in the case . Its set by the bullet cannelure. Deeper, more pressure.

This is when using the same powder charge.

Good point, I’ll try this bullet, but with 16.4gr, then 16.8gr just below the Lyman 17gr max. After I find my best load with this bullet, I’ll load some with the XTP, which people seem to like over a magnum charge.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Good point, I’ll try this bullet, but with 16.4gr, then 16.8gr just below the Lyman 17gr max. After I find my best load with this bullet, I’ll load some with the XTP, which people seem to like over a magnum charge.

Try a 6.6gr charge on the way up too, it might be accurate in your gun.

You will notice in the Lyman data they claim only 1309fps from that 17gr charge using a 4" universal receiver.

 

[Jessesky]

It really is wild to me, I don’t think I’ve ever seen another powder vary so much in factory minimum and maximum loads. Especially with the legendary warning of not downloading by more than 3%. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Jessesky]

This might be completely wrong, but I figured I’d ask. Since a revolver is not a universal receiver, that means it has gas bleed-off, which lowers the chamber pressure. Now I know every load should be worked up in regards to your own firearm. Should this mean that I can work up my load until it matches the published load, by even surpassing the data to accommodate for my gas bleed-off and try to balance out to the pressure of the load which is published.

Of course checking for pressure signs. I’ve reloaded rifle cartridges forever, but compared to revolvers I have less experience reloading for them

 

[murf]

This might be completely wrong, but I figured I’d ask. Since a revolver is not a universal receiver, that means it has gas bleed-off, which lowers the chamber pressure. Now I know every load should be worked up in regards to your own firearm. Should this mean that I can work up my load until it matches the published load, by even surpassing the data to accommodate for my gas bleed-off and try to balance out to the pressure of the load which is published.

Of course checking for pressure signs. I’ve reloaded rifle cartridges forever, but compared to revolvers I have less experience reloading for them

never exceed loading manual data. chamber pressure is chamber pressure no matter the chamber.

also, drop ten percent and work up when you load that xtp bullet. that bullet has a different bearing surface and will need a different amount of powder.

luck,

murf

 

[cheygriz]

I wouldn't drop 10 percent with H110. Perhaps 2.5 percent.

 

[243winxb]

The bleed off from the gap doesnt reduce chamber pressure. Imo.

Hodgdon maximum is 16.7gr in 2002 and now with a Hornady 158 xtp.

Brass may become hard to extract* from the chamber, as you increase the powder charge, up to 16.7 grs.

Different Component= Different Pressure.

 

[murf]

I wouldn't drop 10 percent with H110. Perhaps 2.5 percent.

good catch. normal powder is a ten percent drop. h110 is definitely not normal.

murf

 

[buck460XVR]

I wouldn't drop 10 percent with H110. Perhaps 2.5 percent.

Hodgdon drops a tad more than 10% from their max load, with their listed start charge. So many folks want to treat H110/W296 like the Boogeyman. The problem with downloading H110/W2906 is a failure to ignite properly. This generally coincides with the failure of two other important procedures.....the use of a magnum primer and a heavy crimp, especially in a small case like .357. Hornady shows a safe start charge of only 12.4 with H110/W296 and it's 158gr XTP. While I probably wouldn't want to try this with my 20" carbine for fear of a stuck bullet, I wouldn't be afraid to try it in a short barreled revolver.

1200 FPS outta a revolver with a 158 gr bullet in .357 is pretty much a good load. Like has been said before, for some reason folks think that an extra 50 fps is going to make a difference. Funny, in all of these posts from folks disappointed with velocity, I rarely see any comments about accuracy of those disappointing loads. My most accurate loads in .357 using H110/W296 and a 158gr pill are all well below max(according to Lyman). I have also found that not all 158 gr bullets, because of the position of the cannelure, leave the same amount of case capacity when seated correctly. So two different 158gr bullets, using the same powder charge and same primers will sometimes give me significant different velocities. As others have noted, it seems most manuals, both bound and internet, give very generous velocities.

 

[brasscollector]

The bleed off from the gap doesnt reduce chamber pressure. Imo.

Agreed

Like has been said before, for some reason folks think that an extra 50 fps is going to make a difference.

I will take the accurate load anyday over a load that bests it by 50 or even 100 fps. Also, it would be a little too late to back off a half grain after the revolver has exploded in your hands, akin to backing off the bolt once it's broken from over-torquing.

 

[alfsauve]

I like H110 because, according to the manuals, for any given velocity it produces the lowest peak pressure compared with other powders.

I will always use magnum primers with H110, but I noticed some newer manuals don't even mention it.

 

[cheygriz]

Hodgdon shows 15.0 to 16.7 for 158 grain.

I would see no reason to ever go below 16.0.

If you blow a gun up with a charge out of the manual there was a defect in your weapon.
You should be able to get 1400 FPS with very safe pressures. As said above, H110 achieves good velocity with lower pressure than many other powders. I use it exclusively in .357, .40 and .44.

 

[buck460XVR]

Hodgdon shows 15.0 to 16.7 for 158 grain.

I would see no reason to ever go below 16.0.
You should be able to get 1400 FPS with very safe pressures. As said above, H110 achieves good velocity with lower pressure than many other powders. I use it exclusively in .357, .40 and .44.

Kinda depends on whether you are chronoing the load or going by Hodgdon's stated velocities.

Hodgdon gives 1418fps with a 15 gr powder charge, while Hornady gives only 1200. Hornady shows a max of 15.6 gr, good reason for folks with no other published reference to go below 16. Hodgdon maxes out @ 16.7 while Lyman shows 17 as a max. Still Lyman only says they get 1309 fps with it. Lyman's use of a 4" test receiver would probably be close to what a 6" revolver with a CG would give.

I have a chrono, use it very sparingly. Usually when developing a new load. I have yet to get anything over 1300 fps or so with a 158 bullet in any of my 686s....even with Lyman's max. Thing with Lyman's max was, it was not nearly as accurate as Hornady's max 15.6 gr load. Lyman's max was also much harder on me and the gun and still only gave me about 75 fps more. More is not always better.....as least IMHO.

 

[cheygriz]

I dob't know what you are going to shoot with a full power .357 msg and 158 grain bullet, but zi've never run into any situation whre accuracy was a factor. IOW, all of the loads that I'e tried have been accurate enough to do the jobs that I expect a .357 with heavy bullets to do.

 

[Jessesky]

Hodgdon drops a tad more than 10% from their max load, with their listed start charge. So many folks want to treat H110/W296 like the Boogeyman. The problem with downloading H110/W2906 is a failure to ignite properly. This generally coincides with the failure of two other important procedures.....the use of a magnum primer and a heavy crimp, especially in a small case like .357. Hornady shows a safe start charge of only 12.4 with H110/W296 and it's 158gr XTP. While I probably wouldn't want to try this with my 20" carbine for fear of a stuck bullet, I wouldn't be afraid to try it in a short barreled revolver.

1200 FPS outta a revolver with a 158 gr bullet in .357 is pretty much a good load. Like has been said before, for some reason folks think that an extra 50 fps is going to make a difference. Funny, in all of these posts from folks disappointed with velocity, I rarely see any comments about accuracy of those disappointing loads. My most accurate loads in .357 using H110/W296 and a 158gr pill are all well below max(according to Lyman). I have also found that not all 158 gr bullets, because of the position of the cannelure, leave the same amount of case capacity when seated correctly. So two different 158gr bullets, using the same powder charge and same primers will sometimes give me significant different velocities. As others have noted, it seems most manuals, both bound and internet, give very generous velocities.

I have an accurate load, but sometimes it’s fun to push the envelope of performance. If it’s accurate and performs that’s an A+ in my book, and only one way to find out.

 

[blue32]

My records for a 686-6 with 6" barrel:
158 gr. cast swc
16.0 gr. H-110
CCI #550
Avg. vel: 1189 fps.