357 mag H-110 issues

[Toprudder]

In loads that I worked up using H-110 and 158gn XTP bullets, I went to a max charge of 15.6gn, and got 1180 fps, from a 5" GP100.

In all the loads I tried, using N-110, IMR4227, AA#9, Enforcer, and 2400, it seems that ~1200fps was near the top velocity I saw out of my 5" barrel using 158gn jacketed bullets. In almost every case, the most accurate load was less than max charge.

One interesting load test was with 300-MP powder in my 5" GP100. I reached a velocity plateau of ~1200fps, at 1.6gn below the max charge. As I increased the charge up to the max, the velocity did not change. However, when I tried the same charge range in my 16" lever action, I saw a linear increase right up to the max charge. Not sure why, but 300-MP seems to like longer barrels. And 300-MP showed no pressure signs (primers, even non-magnum primers, still well rounded) while the same velocity loads with H-110 were beginning to show flattened primers (magnum primers, which are harder or thicker than non-magnum).

In the loads I have tried with different powders, H-110 always has more flash and more bark. Very noticeable. N-110, loaded to the same velocity, has much less flash and bark.

 

[Blue68f100]

Load manuals are recommended guides and results of what they got in the lab. This is with their test barrel and/or gun used for testing in a controlled condition. As we all know no 2 barrels are alike. Some are fast some slow, some shoot great, some no so.

With that said if your at max and see no pressure indicators you can go up, but do it slowly looking for pressure signs. Primers are a very poor indicator. If your seeing pressure signs on primers your way past where you should be.

I've noticed your shooting in cold conditions 40F. Colder temp will slow things down in general. So if you get what your looking for in cold temp you may be over when the temp warms up. Then some powders are reverse temp sensitive too. Meaning they get faster as the temp goes down.

Proceed with caution, having something blowup in your hand will not be a good experience. And hopefully no one in the area is injured from flying pieces.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

In loads that I worked up using H-110 and 158gn XTP bullets, I went to a max charge of 15.6gn, and got 1180 fps, from a 5" GP100.

I'm not sure where you got your data but that is not nearly the max charge of H110/W296 with that bullet. I'm talking about tested published data from very trusted sources. (Lyman, Hodgdon, ect.)

 

[243winxb]

To THR members
What are your high pressure signs when using the OP'S combination in 357 magnum using only H110 or Win296 powders with 158 gr bullets? Jacketed bullets or lead swc.

I have 3.

1. Hard extraction of fired brass.

2. The fired brass has a spider web pattern .

3. Fired brass will not fit back into the chamber. A sigh there was no brass spring back. Deformation stage.

If i had a chronograph, i don't, anymore.-- When increasing the powder charge, does the velocity not go up? Or velocity goes down, you are over a safe working pressure.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/high-pressure-signs.148/

 

[Toprudder]

I'm not sure where you got your data but that is not nearly the max charge of H110/W296 with that bullet. I'm talking about tested published data from very trusted sources. (Lyman, Hodgdon, ect.)

You mean like this?

Has anyone noticed that there are wide differences between max charges, pressure and velocity in different manuals?? BIG differences at times.

Yes, I have. I tend to err on side of caution when I work up new loads, so I tend to start with the data that has the lowest max charge. I chrono them, look for pressure signs, and go from there.

 

[Toprudder]

To THR menbers.
What are your high pressure signs when using the OP'S combination in 357 magnum using only H110 or Win296 powders with 158 gr bullets? Jacketed bullets or lead swc.

I have 3.

1. Hard extraction of fired brass.

2. The fired brass has a spider web pattern .

3. Fired brass will not fit back into the chamber. A sigh there was no brass spring back. Deformation stage.

If i had a chronograph, i don't, anymore.-- When increasing the powder charge, does the velocity not go up? Or velocity goes down, you are over a safe working pressure.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/high-pressure-signs.148/

Another one to add to the list is case head expansion, or more specifically, the expansion of the brass just above the web. But, you really need a good blade micrometer to do accurate measurements of this.

 

[someguy2800]

After loading a lot of 357 mag, 357 max, and a few other cartridges with H110 I honestly question if it would even be possible to blow up an L frame Smith with H110. I don’t think you could get enough in the case.

The case on the left is my 357 maximum contender pet load. The bullet is a 180 xtp with the case filled to the base of the bullet with H110 (24 grains) and a small rifle magnum primer. Think about that

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Toprudder, I see you got the data from Hornady. Sorry I didn't look in that book of I wouldn't have asked. They list 16.0gr of W296 so they give you permission to go to 16.0gr since both H110 and W296 are identical powders.

 

[gwpercle]

H110 is a notoriously flashy ball powder...nothing you can do .

40 degrees ...That's near about Freezing ! The cold has an affect on velocity, shoot the same loads when the weather is warmer...say 90 degrees and check the velocity.
Yes, cold weather can have a big impact on burn and thus velocity.

 

[Toprudder]

Toprudder, I see you got the data from Hornady. Sorry I didn't look in that book of I wouldn't have asked. They list 16.0gr of W296 so they give you permission to go to 16.0gr since both H110 and W296 are identical powders.

Hey, no problem. I started with the lowest max charge that I found, picked a good load from that workup that worked for me, and never tried going higher in charge. I wasn’t going for max velocity anyway.

I recently did a load workup for 7.62x39 where the data from 3 different sources, for the same bullet and powder, were all over the place. In fact, there were no overlapping data in the min-max values. Start low and work up.

 

[buck460XVR]

Toprudder, I see you got the data from Hornady. Sorry I didn't look in that book of I wouldn't have asked. They list 16.0gr of W296 so they give you permission to go to 16.0gr since both H110 and W296 are identical powders.

...or depending at how you look at it since they are both the identical powder, maybe one should stop @ 15.6. seriously tho, Hornady is very conservative with their H110/296 loads, just as other published loads for it are all over the place. This is why one really should have more than one published reference when reloading. I use three or more when using a new powder/bullet combo. I throw out the lowest and the highest manual to start and use the area where most agree with. It seems bullet manufacturers tend to be more conservative, always figured they were more for accuracy than velocity. While I mat take suggestions from the internet, I always verify them with a published source. 30 years of experience does not trump actual testing.

Coupla things touched on here that need repeating. IMO, H110/W296 is very temperature sensitive. One reason it needs magnum primers in a small case like .357. I have seen almost 100fps difference with some hunting loads when going from 80 degrees to 20 degrees. It shows on the primers too.

Yes, one cannot get enough H110/W296 unde ra bullet in .357 to blow up a 686 or any other modern .357. But as I said before, sometimes you get to a point where adding more powder does not add velocity, just flash and muzzle blast.

 

[someguy2800]

...or depending at how you look at it since they are both the identical powder, maybe one should stop @ 15.6. seriously tho, Hornady is very conservative with their H110/296 loads, just as other published loads for it are all over the place. This is why one really should have more than one published reference when reloading. I use three or more when using a new powder/bullet combo. I throw out the lowest and the highest manual to start and use the area where most agree with. It seems bullet manufacturers tend to be more conservative, always figured they were more for accuracy than velocity. While I mat take suggestions from the internet, I always verify them with a published source. 30 years of experience does not trump actual testing.

Coupla things touched on here that need repeating. IMO, H110/W296 is very temperature sensitive. One reason it needs magnum primers in a small case like .357. I have seen almost 100fps difference with some hunting loads when going from 80 degrees to 20 degrees. It shows on the primers too.

Yes, one cannot get enough H110/W296 unde ra bullet in .357 to blow up a 686 or any other modern .357. But as I said before, sometimes you get to a point where adding more powder does not add velocity, just flash and muzzle blast.

I tested it for temp sensitivity in three different cartridges, 300 blk, 357 mag, and 357 max at 50 deg F and -25 deg F and saw almost no difference in velocity.

I personally think hornady’s load data is garbage. Best I’ve found is Lyman.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have found W296/H110 to be temp stable when using a Magnum primer.

 

[Toprudder]

I remember watching a video of a guy that tested H110 loads (I think in 300blk) in sub freezing temps, and his conclusion was that below a certain temp it was actually higher pressure than normal, so it was reverse temp sensitive. But most of what I read about H110 requiring magnum primers is due to ignition at cold temps.

 

[buck460XVR]

I personally think hornady’s load data is garbage. Best I’ve found is Lyman.

Speer's data runs pretty close to Hornady in .357, and actually has a lower max than even Hornady(15.5 for H110, 14.7 for W296). The Speer and Hornady were the first manuals I had when I started. Killed a coupla deer with their recipes and my .357 and produced very accurate ammo. Even tho I use Lyman and Hodgdon recipes nowadays also, some of those old Hornady/Speer recipes are still my favorites. Difference between max Hornady and Lyman listed velocities is only 59FPS, while Lyman uses another 1.4 grains of powder in the small .357 case. Is all that extra powder and flash/muzzle blast worth the extra 59 FPS? Is the Lyman load as accurate or more accurate than the Hornady? I know the answer in my revolvers and for my use. Others are free to feel differently. Part of reloading is knowing what works for you.

 

[someguy2800]

I remember watching a video of a guy that tested H110 loads (I think in 300blk) in sub freezing temps, and his conclusion was that below a certain temp it was actually higher pressure than normal, so it was reverse temp sensitive. But most of what I read about H110 requiring magnum primers is due to ignition at cold temps.

I found lil gun in 300 blackout to be dangerously overpressure in sub zero temps. Hornady’s max load showed no pressure signs at 50 degrees but at -28 F it blew the primers out and expanded the case head like .040”. I refuse to use lil gun ever again. I did not see that issue with H110 in my testing, velocities and pressure looked pretty much the same. I have heard H110 becomes sensitive over a certain temp, like 100 degrees.

I use magnum pistol primers with h110 in 357 mag, magnum small rifle primers in 357 max, and standard small rifle in 300 blk. When I tested it magnum pistol primers gave much better velocity spread and like 100 FPS of velocity compared to standard pistol primers in 357 mag. In 300 blackout I tested small rifle and small rifle magnum primers and it made no difference. I assumed from that small rifle primers are hotter than small pistol. I keep using small rifle magnum in 357 max just because that’s what I worked up the loads with.

 

[Toprudder]

I found lil gun in 300 blackout to be dangerously overpressure in sub zero temps. Hornady’s max load showed no pressure signs at 50 degrees but at -28 F it blew the primers out and expanded the case head like .040”. I refuse to use lil gun ever again. I did not see that issue with H110 in my testing, velocities and pressure looked pretty much the same. I have heard H110 becomes sensitive over a certain temp, like 100 degrees.

I use magnum pistol primers with h110 in 357 mag, magnum small rifle primers in 357 max, and standard small rifle in 300 blk. When I tested it magnum pistol primers gave much better velocity spread and like 100 FPS of velocity compared to standard pistol primers in 357 mag. In 300 blackout I tested small rifle and small rifle magnum primers and it made no difference. I assumed from that small rifle primers are hotter than small pistol. I keep using small rifle magnum in 357 max just because that’s what I worked up the loads with.

Good to know. I may need to try that experiment with 300-MP, since they appear to have similar applications and performance. I will do it as soon as it dips below 0 degrees F where I live (which is NEVER ).

Small rifle primers are close to small magnum pistol primers from what I have read, and from my own experience. I guess that is why H110 loads for 30 carbine only specify regular small rifle primers.

 

[someguy2800]

Good to know. I may need to try that experiment with 300-MP, since they appear to have similar applications and performance. I will do it as soon as it dips below 0 degrees F where I live (which is NEVER ).

Small rifle primers are close to small magnum pistol primers from what I have read, and from my own experience. I guess that is why H110 loads for 30 carbine only specify regular small rifle primers.

Its something I try to do with my hunting guns since it is sometimes down to single digit temps during deer season and often -20 in January and February when we want to hunt yotes. It can be enlightening. Some powders that are supposedly temp sensitive show very little difference, and others that are supposed to be temp stable barely work in the cold. For example I tested both RL19 and H4831sc in 25-06 in the cold. RL19 is supposed to be temp sensitive and H4831 is supposed to be immune. RL19 was only down like 50 fps but H4831 was down almost 350 fps! Supprizingly the POI at 200 yards only changed a couple inches though.

 

[243winxb]

After loading a lot of 357 mag, 357 max, and a few other cartridges with H110 I honestly question if it would even be possible to blow up an L frame Smith with H110. I don’t think you could get enough in the case.

With 17 grs in a 357 mag, there is still some room.

The Hornady bullet base to middle of crimp groove is .359" My lswc is .353" Both do not contact or compress the W296 powder. Powder is .401" below the case mouth.

I dont think a full case will blow up a gun, but may need to pound the brass out of the cylinder?

Note: old 2002 Win 296 load date is not the same for cast and jacketed bullets. Very different.

Vintage jacketed bullet.

 

[someguy2800]

With 17 grs in a 357 mag, there is still some room.

The Hornady bullet base to middle of crimp groove is .359" My lswc is .353" Both do not contact or compress the W296 powder. Powder is .401" below the case mouth.

I dont think a full case will blow up a gun, but may need to pound the brass out of the cylinder?

Note: old 2002 Win 296 load date is not the same for cast and jacketed bullets. Very different. View attachment 813762 View attachment 813764 View attachment 813765

Vintage jacketed bullet.

So about .040-.050" of air space if I'm reading that correctly? Probably another half grain of a full grain would fill it to the base of the bullet? I know I measured it at one time but my usual load of 21 grains under a 125 fills it to or very close to the base of the bullet and the cases come out with one finger on the extractor.

I've observed in the cartridges I've experimented with it in that H110 works best when it fills or very nearly fills to the base of the bullet. For example with my 357 max and the 180 xtp's there are two crimp grooves you can use. If you load in the shorter one it shoots best with 22 grains but does not like to be reduced farther. If you load in the 2nd groove with the same 22 grains it shoots poorly, but once you work it up to 24 grains seated long it works great again. Pressures are mild with both, probably 50-55K (contender only pressures). If you look at the same with the other super magnum pistol rounds like 454, 460, 445, ect... there seams to be the same trend that if you just keep making the case longer you can keep filling it with H110 but there is a steady increase of pressure of course from the standard revolver pressures to the super mag pressures. It doesn't seam to ever jump in pressure though from small incremental increases like faster pistol powders will. I do know from working with it in 30 herrett and 357 herrett that it does not like to have air space in the case.

 

[243winxb]

It doesn't seam to ever jump in pressure though from small incremental increases like faster pistol powders will.

In 44 mag with 240 swc type/250 gr cast using 296 , i had a pressure increase, i called it a spike. Went from 23.5 gr to 24. The metal around the pin got peened by the recoil shield. The pin would no longer move in and out freely in M29. My regular loading is now 23 grs. Less wear and tear on the old gun (and me). Just had M29 barrel set back and up graded.