.357 Mag vs. 10mm for woods/ hunting duty?

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A little story for you to consider. Last fall while scouting for a stand site for deer hunting, I rounded the conner on an old abandoned logging road. Standing in the road ahead of me was a huge black bear, I've spent alot of time in both Alaska and Canada, this was a 400# plus black bear, instead of the usually hasty retreat, he bounced on his front legs and huffed at me. I was carrying a .45 ACP in a shoulder holster, the bear was less than 30 yards and in less time than it has taken to describe the incident it was over, he decided to run, but it took him a couple of seconds to decide, enough time for me to realize how puny the .45 ACP was in comparrison to the threat.
I recently purchased a Colt Delta 10MM for my ventures in bear country. I will feel much more able to defend myself if need be.

Before I get any feed back about a concealed handgun, I am a CCHL holder, and CCL instructor and it was legal to be so armed.

Get the 10 MM;)
 
Chuck Taylor advises in The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery 4th edition, that when the .357 barrel length "goes below 6" the round loses it's magic". I make it a habit to never dispute Chuck...

That being said, I think a 6" pistol is a hunting gun and the 5 or 4" gun is a self defense gun. The 4" can do some cross over hunting, but that is just my $0.02.
 
whats the min barrel lenght to hunt with in texas? If it is over 5", unless you get a long slide, its going to have to be a revoler.
 
.357

I like a 3" S&W model 60 for a woods gun. In the spring and summer the first round is a shot shell to deal with any snakes:uhoh: (I hate snakes), then 4 125 grainers to deal with any rabid critters, two or four legged. Maybe a lite bullet for some areas of the country, but there are no bears around Savannah, Georgia:).
 
What about gators?

BTW do your strip clubs still have amateur nights with cash prizes in Savannah?
 
I would carry L Frame in 357 with a 6 inch barrel and have the rounds loaded to the gills. Not sure if they make +P 357 Mag ammo, or is that call 357 Max ? I think maybe that would be a 353 Casulls, if I remember correctly.

A 45 ACP is great for killing people, but not so good for many forms of hunting. If it was for self defense against a large animal that frequents strip clubs, a 45 ACP would probably do, or at least scare them away.

My middle son who is also has a CCW License, carries a 22 pocket pistol in his pocket, but also carries a P7. He says that he would shoot who or what ever in the balls, when that who or what bends over he then will shoot them in the ear with his P7.

I hunt deer with 44 Mag, bigger animals may require bigger guns.

Jerry
 
Chuck Taylor advises in The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery 4th edition, that when the .357 barrel length "goes below 6" the round loses it's magic".

I would second this thought also. I was looking at an "Alaskan" in 454 this weekend and it looked about useless to me, 3" barrel, (looked like it anyway) a large grip (felt good but I did not shoot it:eek:) It would be painful to the max and not really something I would own.

That being said I am sure someone will tell me how good they are and now with the new powders out, it has all the power as its 6 to 8 inch cousin:what:

Is it going to do the job? What is its job? $800 dollar show piece that 99% of the people who shoot would not last one cylinder :neener:

Most need to step back and read about the origins of some of these rounds and see why they evolved. When they did and see why they have been replaced.:uhoh:

The 10mm is in line with the 41 not the 357 imho, and the 44 is somewhat better if you can shoot it. So with all that BS I'll still stay with the 10mm:rolleyes:
 
Chuck Taylor advises in The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery 4th edition, that when the .357 barrel length "goes below 6" the round loses it's magic". I make it a habit to never dispute Chuck.

Chuck Taylor is full of crap, about as much as any gun writer "expert" I know of. My 2.25" SP101 will put a 180 grain load out the barrel at 1306 fps/662 ft lbs. It's true enough that a short barrel neuters the 125 grain load a bit, but the heavier the bullet, the longer it resides in the gun to utilize the pressures. If the bullet leaves the barrel too soon, it loses the meat of the pressure peak which occurs after the bullet leaves the barrel as evidenced by the fireball that 125 grain loads produce and the forcing cone erosion they cause. Now, my 6.5" Blackhawk only produces 1400 fps/785 ft lbs with that very same 180 grain load! You loose all of 94 fps by dropping down over 4" off the barrel!

Anyone with a chronograph can prove this to themselves. Believe only half of what you see and none of what you read in the gun press. Some folks have agendas, some to sell magazines, some to promote big, slow bullets over small, fast ones (an idiotic reason for an agenda, but one Taylor seems to have), and some to boost advertising dollars for the magazine, but danged few seem to care much about the truth. :rolleyes:

The 10mm is in line with the 41 not the 357 imho,

In energies, my Blackhawk in .357 will do anything a 10 of the hottest flaver will do and the 4" ain't far behind, check out the chronographed data above. If that don't do it for ya, go to buffalo bore's site. A .41, however, is capable of making .44 magnum energies out of a 6" barrel, OVER 1000 ft lbs, and way out of the 10's league. The ten is hampered by the delay blowback guns it is chambered in. To get to .41 mag energies, it needs more case and more pressure and that can only happen in a gas operated gun or a revolver.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#41mag
 
Just to be argumentive, I believe your own figures prove Chuck is right with his mention, considering the amout of energy you have lost. More than 15% right off of the top. I could get a calculator and show the exact but no point:uhoh:

That alone tells you quite a bit, look at the number of gunmakers and people who pay big bucks for that extra 5% or less for increase:confused:

So the fact is much is lost and the lighter and faster the bullet which 357 was known for, 125 being the biggie means a lot :p

HQ
 
The 125 grain load is worthless in the woods. I carry at least 158 grains. I've never shot game with less.

My example was to show that even in a 2.3" barrel the "magic" is still there witha heavy bullet. My own carry load for the SP101 involves a 140 grain bullet at 1335 fps/551 ft lbs. I don't mess with less. Besides, that Speer bullet is really accurate.

Buffalo Bore's listings give their 180 1375 fps (I've yet to chronograph my 180 in a 4" gun) from a 4" Smith and Wesson. By my calculation, that's 755 ft lbs, right there with a 5" 10mm in hottest renditions. Now, we're talking apples and apples, 4" revolver vs 5" auto for portability in the field. No practical difference in power yet the .357 has the capability to go small game hunting with .38 wadcutter. That's why I prefer the .357 Revolver to the 10 or ANY autoloader in the field and for hunting purposes, that and I've found few autos can equal a good revolver's accuracy. I get 4" groups at 100 yards with iron sights out of my Blackhawk from the bench shooting those 180 grain loads. Beat that with your Delta! :D
 
BTW, if you just love the hype around the 125 grain load, Buffalo Bore is still getting 604 ft lbs out of it in their loadings in a 3" barrel. I probably could do better than 550 with the 140 in my SP101 if I switched to AA#9 from 2400. I use AA#9 in my 180 load. However, I feel 550 ft lbs is plenty for self defense against a human attacker and the load has less flash/bang than the 125 grainer and is very accurate. In the woods for hunting, I switch to the 180 or a 158 grain cast load. 140 is too light for deer and hog, not enough penetration to suit me.
 
When I wanted a woods/hunting gun, I picked a 4-5/8" Blackhawk in .41 Magnum. 10mm and 357 are probably adequate from packable sized pistols, but who wants to settle for adequate?

If you're really stuck on 10mm or 357, I'd say to go for the 357. Wheelguns just seem more right in the woods and being able to plink with cheap 38s is nice.
 
When I wanted a woods/hunting gun, I picked a 4-5/8" Blackhawk in .41 Magnum. 10mm and 357 are probably adequate from packable sized pistols, but who wants to settle for adequate?

I like the .41, don't have one. But, I have a .45 Colt 4 5/8" blackhawk in .45 Colt that makes 1000 ft lbs with a 300 grain .45 caliber bullet for bite. Why did you "settle" for a puny little .41? :D I mean, .41 is probably adequate, but...........

Seriously, I like the big Blackhawk, but my medium frame .357 is a lot lighter on the hip and will get the job done. I don't hunt with it, just my hiking choice. Hunting, I have a couple of blackhawks and a scoped Contender in .30-30 Winchester.

HOWEVER, the Blackhawk is no heavier than a 1911 like the Delta and the G20 I fired seemed a might large, too. Before I'd carry that bulk, yeah, I'd go with the Blackhawk and the power for sure. :D
 
MCgunner said:
I like the .41, don't have one. But, I have a .45 Colt 4 5/8" blackhawk in .45 Colt that makes 1000 ft lbs with a 300 grain .45 caliber bullet for bite. Why did you "settle" for a puny little .41?:D I mean, .41 is probably adequate, but...........

I was awfully tempted to get a .45, but I've also got a thing for slightly oddball chamberings. Besides, I can get 1000 ft lbs from a nice flat shooting 170gr .41 caliber bullet too.:neener:
 
I'm with ya on the .41, just couldn't resist the barb. As for flat shooting, .30-30.....:neener:

I do want a .41 in a Blackhawk JUST FOR THAT REASON, the cult appeal. I'll get one one of these days. I got the .45 in lieu of a .44 mag for the same reason and because I didn't want the bulk of a superblackhawk. Ammo cost doesn't matter to a handloader, either. :D The .45 does have a little bit of a loopy trajectory past 50-75 yards. A house brick at 1200 fps don't have much of a BC. LOL
 
McGunner said:
Chuck Taylor is full of crap, about as much as any gun writer "expert" I know of. My 2.25" SP101 will put a 180 grain load out the barrel at 1306 fps/662 ft lbs.

First off, thems fighting words. Chuck Taylor is not your run of the mill gun writer like Boddington or Skeeter. He is a professional and trains our professionals (cops, military etc...) in weapons craft.

Second off, the GENERAL ADVICE I GAVE is sound. There are exceptions to every freaking rule and debating exceptions is a waste of time for one reason, exceptions are in fact recommendations, not advice. So your exception is actually a recommendation on what ammo to use to negate the above effect as much as possible. Physics is Physics and the above stands until disporven by Stephen Hawking or the like.

I hereby amend my statement by putting an * at the bottom wherein I note that Buffalo Bore has a 180 grain .357 (verified) that will perform well, but certainly proves the over all point that coming from a shorter barrel it still loses approx 8% of it's velocity. All items contained herein should be independtly verified by a panel of experts and yourself before the results are accted upon. My views are expressly my own, I make no warranty, gaurantee or promise for statements made and cannot be held legally liable for your interpretation of, or actions taken as a result of the above. Please consult an attorny to discuss your legal rights and options when taking advice off the internet. See offer for details. Exclusions apply.

happy?

:neener:
 
coming from a shorter barrel it still loses approx 8% of it's velocity.

8% is "losing its magic"?

Sounds more like a rational and quite reasonable trade-off between velocity and carry convenience and draw speed.

....which is what handguns are about. Want a 165 grainer that goes 3000 fps? Easy. Carry a 24" barrel centerfire rifle.

I'd definitely say that the statement about the round "losing its magic" is indeed, a load of ****.
 
First off, thems fighting words. Chuck Taylor is not your run of the mill gun writer like Boddington or Skeeter. He is a professional and trains our professionals (cops, military etc...) in weapons craft.

Well, I'm not a fighter over words. :D However, he's no ballistics expert. I've seen him tout some GOOFY algebra to "prove" his .45 is better than my .357 Revolver. Now, the "Taylor (not Chuck) Power Factor" was dreamed up by a non-ballistician back in the 19th century by an elephant hunter to explain why a 1000 grain 600 nitro express was better than a .45 caliber bullet for downing elephant in the black powder age. Well....DUH! It has no application to modern handguns and is goofy in the first place. Yet, he wrote this drivel. I lost any and all confidence in the man's intellect after reading that STUPID article. I've known a lot of cops, no offense, but some didn't have the brains to be a physicist, that's why they were cops. :D I don't profess intelligence, either, just making observations. Just because a guy was a cop or in the military, doesn't make him a rocket scientist. If you LIKE to follow cops and their writings, Evan Marshall was a cop. He does seem to have a penchant for statistics.

Second off, the GENERAL ADVICE I GAVE is sound. There are exceptions to every freaking rule and debating exceptions is a waste of time for one reason, exceptions are in fact recommendations, not advice. So your exception is actually a recommendation on what ammo to use to negate the above effect as much as possible. Physics is Physics and the above stands until disporven by Stephen Hawking or the like.

Special load? You're going to HUNT with a 125 grain bullet? We're talking HUNTING and OUTDOOR use here. The vast majority of .357 loads are for self defense and consider things like recovery time after a shot, excessive penetration on a human and subsequent collateral damage, etc. There is no such thing as excessive penetration on game and all those walmart .357 loads are not designed for hunting. You HAVE to go to buffalo bore if you don't handload (like the rest of us) to get your deer hunting rounds if you hunt with a .357. With the 10mm, every load is special because they're so hard to find! Now, if you handload, it's just like any other round, load what works and in the field that's heavy bullets hot as possible. It's not a special round, it's the proper round for the application.

Taylor, to his credit, is right about common 125 grain .357 loads intended for self defense. Most of 'em, you put 'em in a 2" barrel gun, they're going to drop down in the 450 ft lb range. The 180 grain loads used for hunting and outdoors don't, however, and are the ones relevant to this discussion. Too, Taylor's arguments are likely about dropping to snubs. The average .357 125 grain hot load can put up 600 ft lbs from a 4" gun. That's plenty for self defense as law enforcement has proved on the street.
 
125 grain is fine for me

For a woods gun I (as in me, in Georgia/Alabama woods) see nothing wrong with a 125 JSP or JHP for that matter. Bears are far away in them there hills and I've never bumped into a gator that didn't want to pose for pictures. I have run up on a racoon with a very bad attitude, and a fox that I believe had rabies. I have also sent some opossums away. None of these critters seemed to need a heavier load. I would venture to guess that I could have made do with a .22, but that's not the stuff of an exciting story.
Pick your gun and load for where you live. If no are bears around your woods gun can be your carry gun.
If you are hunt with the gun, then get a hunting gun and leave the 4" and less guns at home. An over looked gain of the longer barrel is the longer sight radius, and that helps MOST PEOPLE shoot better.
 
.357 Mag vs. 10mm for woods/ hunting duty?

That's the original post. Now, for woods bumming around here (except that I might get a shot at a hog, they're so boomin' thick around here) a 125 grain load is okay. However, HUNTING, I'll choose something in the 158 grain and up in the caliber. I've killed three deer with a 158 SWC, seemed to work well. The 180 load I worked up for my Blackhawk and have hunted some with, but haven't taken anything with it.
 
Yes the OP is about the 357 and 10mm. I believe to put yourself into the single action shooter is ok if you want that, in respects to the revolver class.

The problem I am looking at is what is the overall best package between the 10mm and the six shot wheel gun. In CA all we are allowed is the 10 round mag. But in other parts of the country the higher mags are allowed.

With that in mind I would still prefer the the 10mm. If you go with the Desert Eagle, I would say the 8"/10" 357 would be real hard to beat. But it is a heavy brute. And expensive piece of goods.

Take your pick and enjoy, been a lot of information for you to digest. Good luck.
HQ
 
phantomak47 wrote in original post:


.357 Mag vs. 10mm for woods/ hunting duty?
Say you wanted a sidearm for woods carry or a gun for close to midrange hunting with open sights, we are not talking a dedicated hunting pistol, so lets keep it between these calibers.

My take is simple since your are in Texas, get whichever one fits you after shooting some varieties, and can afford, and afford to feed with factory or by reloading.

Everyone, again my take is simple, it always boils down to the same factors:

-What is legal for your jurisdiction, and this includes what Game & Fish Regulations may stipulate as well.

-What is the gun going to be used for?
Each environment has its own critters, and therefore dictates what one might be asked to do with a sidearm.

-Gun Fit to shooter, and I mean actually shooting a variety of guns, and loads to know what you can use to get quick effective hits with.

-Budget, including ammo costs, loads to choose from, and reloading costs and considerations.

-Investigation and verification of loads for tasks, and you and the gun being able to place these loads quickly and effectively if called upon to do so.

Some that have years of experience in areas, are those to ask for suggestions, as they know habitats and critters, and can assist in preventing trouble showing up/ you stumbling onto and loads that have proven themselves when no other option was left.


Interesting thing is, critters , just like humans, do not know they are supposed to react to gun makes, platforms, calibers, bullet weights and configurations.
They do not read Internet, Gun Magazines, Hunting Magazines, Mfg literature of guns an ammunition.

Down on the farm folks still carry a 38spl for instance, and put down cows.
Not long ago a 1929 Colt Detective Special and Old S&W Model 36, using the same load, the "Widow Maker" it is called, just a standard pressure 158 gr LRN , put down two cows.

Kel-Tec P-11 did the same thing, using that Win 115 STHP that gets such bad postings from its use in a tragic event.

Bone Stock Gov't Model of 1911 using 230 gr JHP felled a deer, nice six point.
Now this gun has always run JHP, the old boy is just as happy with hardball, just Game & Fish says, "no FMJ". So his farm, ranch, property gun is loaded with JHPs.

One of his other property guns is a Model 19 with 158 gr loads.

If he needs something bigger, that is what the 12 or 20 ga shotguns with slugs are for, or the Lever Actions in 30-30, or the bolt gun in '06 are for...

P-11 being tested to see if some of the classic guns he and they have, need to be put back into the safe and the P-11s tossed in trucks, barns, tractor tool boxes ...like others in his business have done.
Guess so, he has six coming...

These will work for what some might encounter on his property, yes some single action .44s will stay in use, still, concerns of two legged varmits are more of concern than a bear, or hog where he and his are.

One heckuva of a lot fun when used for ground hog hunting too...*snicker*
"Pest permit means the bbl don't have to be 4" min" so sayth the Regs unlike for Hunting as falls under Game & Fish Regs.
 
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