walking arsenal
Member
what does velocity get you? have someone hit you with a volkswagon doing 5 mph then 15, 10 mph difference right? which one hurts worse?
.357 sig question
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fastbolt
Member
I think the 357SIG will remain a viable, but lesser, caliber when it comes to pistols chambered for it, and ammunition selection & availability ... compared to the 9mm, .45 ACP & .40 S&W ...
The pending "shorty" 45Glock may even provide some unanticipated competition for the 357SIG due to the smaller frame being available in the new caliber. Pistol grip frame size, similar capacity due to case dimensions, and the allure of the "new" lightweight .45 ammunition may attract a fair share of the civilian & even L/E market, especially those who have wanted a .45 but found the grip frmae dimensions just fractionally too large for their hands. L/E are often the first to jump on anything newer, better, faster, more "tactical", anyway ... which doesn't mean it's any of the that except "newer".
Sure, the smaller ammunition manufacturers that specialize in higher velocity ammunition are often mentioned for their 357SIG loads, and their velocities ARE significantly faster than the major manufacturer's loads, including the commonly accepted L/E loads in 357SIG ... But, the commonly adopted L/E ammunition in this caliber doesn't offer much more than 50-150fps "advantage" in velocity over the "common" +P & +P+ 9mm L/E loads, and it's closer to 50-100fps in most cases.
All things being equal, the major manufacturer's 357SIG loads aren't able to offer any significant advantage in most "performance" aspects, even if they do offer 50-150fps faster velocities.
I think handloading & custom/performance ammunition can offer some interesting loads in this caliber ... which can also be said for 10mm & .41 Magnum ... but then there's the increased wear & tear on the platforms. 357SIG IS harder on pistols, even those pistols designed from the drawing board for this caliber. That's a fairly common theme if you talk to ammunition companies, armorers & firearms manufacturers.
There are some excellent pistols chambered for it, and many folks like it. Terrific. I'm always in favor of anything that generates production of quality firearms and encourages shooting sports ...
We may be living in the peak period of the caliber's popularity, though ... The accumulating "street results" haven't exactly shown this caliber to be the "Thor's Hammer" of the pistol ammunition world, so far ...
Let's talk about it over a beer in another 6-8 years ...
The pending "shorty" 45Glock may even provide some unanticipated competition for the 357SIG due to the smaller frame being available in the new caliber. Pistol grip frame size, similar capacity due to case dimensions, and the allure of the "new" lightweight .45 ammunition may attract a fair share of the civilian & even L/E market, especially those who have wanted a .45 but found the grip frmae dimensions just fractionally too large for their hands. L/E are often the first to jump on anything newer, better, faster, more "tactical", anyway ... which doesn't mean it's any of the that except "newer".
Sure, the smaller ammunition manufacturers that specialize in higher velocity ammunition are often mentioned for their 357SIG loads, and their velocities ARE significantly faster than the major manufacturer's loads, including the commonly accepted L/E loads in 357SIG ... But, the commonly adopted L/E ammunition in this caliber doesn't offer much more than 50-150fps "advantage" in velocity over the "common" +P & +P+ 9mm L/E loads, and it's closer to 50-100fps in most cases.
All things being equal, the major manufacturer's 357SIG loads aren't able to offer any significant advantage in most "performance" aspects, even if they do offer 50-150fps faster velocities.
I think handloading & custom/performance ammunition can offer some interesting loads in this caliber ... which can also be said for 10mm & .41 Magnum ... but then there's the increased wear & tear on the platforms. 357SIG IS harder on pistols, even those pistols designed from the drawing board for this caliber. That's a fairly common theme if you talk to ammunition companies, armorers & firearms manufacturers.
There are some excellent pistols chambered for it, and many folks like it. Terrific. I'm always in favor of anything that generates production of quality firearms and encourages shooting sports ...
We may be living in the peak period of the caliber's popularity, though ... The accumulating "street results" haven't exactly shown this caliber to be the "Thor's Hammer" of the pistol ammunition world, so far ...
Let's talk about it over a beer in another 6-8 years ...
fastbolt
Member
Oh, and in a good-natured response to the comment,
I'd submit that a more fair comparison of the 9mm +P/+P+ & 357SIG velocity issue might be better phrased ... which would hurt worse, being hit by a VW traveling at 65mph, or 75mph?
I think it hardly matters ...
...
I'd submit that a more fair comparison of the 9mm +P/+P+ & 357SIG velocity issue might be better phrased ... which would hurt worse, being hit by a VW traveling at 65mph, or 75mph?
I think it hardly matters ...
Preacherman
Member
Street results with the 357 SIG are pretty impressive, certainly better than the 9mm +P or +P+ rounds - at least, that's the feedback I get from reading LE post-shooting reports. There have been a number of comparisons between the 357 SIG in 125gr. JHP and the .357 Magnum in the same bullet type and weight. Several Texas cops have commented that both of these rounds produce the "hit-by-a-lightning-bolt" effect when perps are struck with them. I've not seen the same comments about 9mm., even in the higher-velocity loads.
There seems to be a "sweet spot" in handgun performance where energy is above 450-500 fpe, velocity is above 1100 fps, and bullet weight is 125-165 gr. Rounds that deliver excellent results in this range include the Cor-Bon 165gr. JHP and Pow'rBall in .45 ACP, the 155gr. and 165gr. JHP's in .40 S&W, the 357 SIG and .357 Magnum in 125gr. JHP, and the 10mm. The .357 Magnum is still the "gold standard" of street stopping power as far as many cops are concerned, and the loads mentioned above come within a few percentage points of its stopping performance. The high-velocity 9mm. loads are a little behind, but not so much as to be of major concern. I agree that they do offer faster recovery from recoil in most guns, which may be of importance for rapid follow-up shots.
There seems to be a "sweet spot" in handgun performance where energy is above 450-500 fpe, velocity is above 1100 fps, and bullet weight is 125-165 gr. Rounds that deliver excellent results in this range include the Cor-Bon 165gr. JHP and Pow'rBall in .45 ACP, the 155gr. and 165gr. JHP's in .40 S&W, the 357 SIG and .357 Magnum in 125gr. JHP, and the 10mm. The .357 Magnum is still the "gold standard" of street stopping power as far as many cops are concerned, and the loads mentioned above come within a few percentage points of its stopping performance. The high-velocity 9mm. loads are a little behind, but not so much as to be of major concern. I agree that they do offer faster recovery from recoil in most guns, which may be of importance for rapid follow-up shots.
The results that I've seen from LE shootings has the 9x19 Ranger T loads (RA9T and RA9TP) running neck and neck with the 357 Sig--i.e, no significant difference. In fact, the last information I've seen on the RA9T had it effective in two shots or less in 113 out of 114 shootings (with the one shooting being simultaneous multiple hits so no it didn't count). The 357 Sig is just plain not beating the performance of the RA9T.
First, there is ammunition in that range that does not deliver adequate anti-personnel performance because of bullet design. There is plenty of ammunition that falls outside that "sweet spot" that delivers as good (or better) results (e.g., the aforementioned RA9T). Your inclusion of the 165-grain .45 ACP is at best problematical in that they really has not been an extensive of this weight in the .45 ACP (and the fact the top-performing bullets in .45 ACP are all 230-grain). While the 125-grain SJHP .357 Magnum had fearsome reputation in the sixties and seventies, we need to remember a couple points: first and foremost, bullet design has come a long, long way in the last ten years (five years for that matter)--that energy level is no longer required to obtain adequate bullet performance; and secondly, in real life (and well-documented I might add), at least one major LEA has stepped up and publicly admitted that the 180-grain .40 S&W ( a round outside your "sweet spot") performed better in actual use (actual "street results" for their agency) than the mythical .357 Magnum 125-grain SJHP it replaced.
Velocity/energy alone never has been the wounding the agent in handgun ammunition--it has always been the bullet. Historically, it has taken more velocity/energy to insure adequate performance (penetration and expansion) from a bullet--SuperVel was not "better" because it delivered more velocity/energy; it was better because it delivered enough velocity/energy that the bullets of that generation worked most of the time (hence, false assumption that velocity/energy alone is better), but with the current state of bullet design, we have 147-grain .36 calibre bullets at 1000 fps delivering the same results as 125-grain .36 calibre bullets at 1350 fps. Fastbolt has the analogy right.
Barring any major ammunition developments (which I don't see), I believe we are seeing the peak in popularity for the 357 Sig. While it is a good round, it just plain doesn't do anything better than the current top 9x19 loads while proving itself much harder on the weapons chambered for it (and somewhat harder on the shooter as well). In a way, it's in the same position as the 10mm was--it doesn't offer any performance advantage (at least in anti-personnel terms) over it's competitors (and even as impressive as the list of agencies authorizing (not the same as using, BTW), it's still really not comparative in popularity/LE use to the 10mm in its heyday). It's kind of a pity because, even though it primary reason for existence was marketing (helping SIG reclaim some of the market share it lost to Glock by capitalizing on the myth of the 125-grain .357 Magnum), it is a good little round (albeit not without its problems). It may be a case of too little, too late--it is a good round, but it is just not a "better mousetrap."
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Vapor63
Member
Regardless of the Velocity and testing statistics, most people I know aren't blobs of gelatin nor do they wear 12 layers of denim. Regardless, the true proof is in actual use. Reports from police state how it has taken ragin pitbulls down on a single shot where 9mm takes 4-8. It takes armed felons down in one shot even when not hitting them in the chest. When youre defending yourself you should be thinking "how big of a bloody hole can I blow through this guys face" but rather incapacitate him as quickly and accuratley as possible. .357 SIG seems to manage, from the reports given by LEO's, better than 9mm and even .45 when shooting at auto glass. Simply it is more effecient to have a super fast round that can strike an opponent down as quickly as possible. If you can spray 25 9mm rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him its a lot less effecient than striking him down quickly from the same distance with 2 shots. .357 SIG not only has more outdoor animal protection use, but it's great for close environments as well especially where metal or glass is in the way. I don't think price matters when when your life is on the line and that extra 5 rounds won't matter if none of them knock them down. As more and more LEO's and agencies use it, the bigger the statistics and stories will grow, the more appealing it will be, and the more agencies and ranges will offer it. Its a rising star in terms of self-defense against humans and animals alike and will come to be known as such the more it is used.
Just my giant heap of biased propaganda-I mean 'advice'.
Just my giant heap of biased propaganda-I mean 'advice'.
EdipisReks
Member
false dichotomy and red herring abound.
natedog
Member
Does the .357 Sig 125gr load really compare to the .357 Magnum 125gr load? Anyone have some velocity comparisons?
How much faster is the .357 Sig 125gr than the 9mm +P+ 125gr?
How much faster is the .357 Sig 125gr than the 9mm +P+ 125gr?
Yep--that's just about as good as the reports can get that say, "they all fall to hardball," or "the .45 ACP is effective 19 out of 20 times will ball ammo." What is really happening is actual LE usage is that it is performing no better than the top 9x19 loads (or any other top service loads). It's proving just another choice with nothing to distinguish (except maybe noise).
By the same token, "you can spray 18 (taking into the reduced capacity) 357 SIG rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him, but its lots less efficient than striking him down from the same distance with 2 [well-placed 9x19] shots."
BUT the 9x19 will "knock them down" (and has been "knocking them down") just as well as the 357 SIG. Price will matter when you shoot more, practice more, maybe get some good training, and become more proficient with your weapon because you can afford it.
BUT that's not how it's working out. As more and LEOs and agencies use it, the statistics are showing it is no better (or no worse) than any of the other service calibres with which it is competing. It is becoming clear it is just another choice. If anything, its growth has pretty much leveled out (almost to the stagnation point). Its use is not growing all that rapidly at all. It's just not "taking off."
Wishful thinking. It is proving no more capable than any of the other service rounds, and in fact is just another choice.
Vapor63
Member
Can I have my colon back if your done with it? I'm gonna need to pull some answers out of it...
I'm gonna need to pull some answers out of it...it's cool to see responses from almost a year ago
My understanding is that with the current 357 SIG technology the bullets are frequently bonded or constructed in such a manner that they stay together much better than the older .357 Magnums. Therefore, more penetration and less violent expansion is the result. (could be wrong)
The velocities, IIRC, are very similar with the 125gr bullets.
Sean posted this a little further back...
cheers
IIRC the most significant difference is related to bullet construction. I think the renowned 125gr .357 Magnum bullets that established this cartridge's reputation violently expanded and even fragmented in the bad guys, causing much trauma.
My understanding is that with the current 357 SIG technology the bullets are frequently bonded or constructed in such a manner that they stay together much better than the older .357 Magnums. Therefore, more penetration and less violent expansion is the result. (could be wrong)
The velocities, IIRC, are very similar with the 125gr bullets.
Sean posted this a little further back...
cheers
outofbattery
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2004
- Messages
- 874
My favorite pistol is my Sig Pro 2340 in .357 Sig . Why ? I don't really know other than I'm able to shoot it as well , if not better 95% of the time than my 9mm and .45 Sigs , .40 Glock , .45 Kimber , .40 Browning , 9mm Smith and Wessons and .357 Ruger but most importantly it's lots of fun and I fully trust it . Does it matter to me if it offers marginally better performance than 9mm or +/- /= .357,.40,.45 ? Nope , if I didn't think any of the above would get the job done I wouldn't own and carry them . I'd rather rely on what I know I can shoot well than worry about what does what to blocks of jello or clay . I'm not a law enforcement professional , I just play one on weekends , but from most I have seen and read about LE shootings it's all about shot placement : I happen to feel like I can place my 115gr CorBon's close enough where I need them to feel safe with my Sig on my hip and that's all I really care about .
Disregarding that fact than 99.98% of us will never be in a position to make any of this bench talk relevant , .357Sig is lots of fun to shoot . If you don't like it : fine , but it's proven to be as effective as anything else within reason and the issues of relative cost and reduced lifespan aren't really show stoppers for anyone that owns multiple pistols and shoots them regularly anyway .
Disregarding that fact than 99.98% of us will never be in a position to make any of this bench talk relevant , .357Sig is lots of fun to shoot . If you don't like it : fine , but it's proven to be as effective as anything else within reason and the issues of relative cost and reduced lifespan aren't really show stoppers for anyone that owns multiple pistols and shoots them regularly anyway .
That's the key. It's all about the shooter, what fits the shooter, and with what the shooter is comfortable. When it comes to the service calibres, the calibre of the weapon does not make a difference--the shooter and the weapon do.
The best thing anyone can do is forget all the silly calibre debates, pick a weapon that fits you, and you can shoot well the practice and train (a lot).
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stealthmode
Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2004
- Messages
- 459
my head hurts reading all this back and forth:banghead:
The 357sig will remain a significant caliber because:
1. There is a prominent trend for major calibers in small packages (i.e. Glock, Kahr, Kel-Tec) due to CCW laws being passed in most states now. The 357sig has the best stopping record in barrels 4" or less**:
357sig - Rem 125gr JHP - 91% stops in actual shootings
45acp - Rem 185 gr GS - 90% stops in actual shootings
40s&w - 3 different loads Speer 155gr GD, Rem 165gr GS, Corbon 135gr JHP -
89% stops in actual shootings
** 357mag in 4" revolver is still No. 1 at 96%, but the smaller semi-autos are nearly 50% smaller and much more concealable and much more popular with CCW holders for that reason.
2.While the top 3 stoppers in ultra compact guns are statisically equal in stopping power, the 357sig is probably the most accurate of the 3 top loads. Since the first three rules of surviving a gun fight are:
1. Shot Placement
2. Shot Placement
3. Shot Placement
The most accurate round wins.
3. Of these top 3 rounds in ultra compact guns, the 357sig is probably the most managable in the recoil department, considerably smaller than the compact 45's and considerably more accurate than the 40's.
4. One of the reasons that the Texas DPS switched to this caliber is the anecdotal evidence coming back from LEO's in their own department citing actual shootings where the "struck by lightining" effect of a single shot of 357sig has been observed.
So at present, the 357sig has the edge in the class of gun that is coming to be the most popular class of handgun for defense - the ultra compact gun in major caliber. While these top 3 may be about equal, it is hard to simply disregard the top performing caliber in this pouplar category.
Roll Tide
1. There is a prominent trend for major calibers in small packages (i.e. Glock, Kahr, Kel-Tec) due to CCW laws being passed in most states now. The 357sig has the best stopping record in barrels 4" or less**:
357sig - Rem 125gr JHP - 91% stops in actual shootings
45acp - Rem 185 gr GS - 90% stops in actual shootings
40s&w - 3 different loads Speer 155gr GD, Rem 165gr GS, Corbon 135gr JHP -
89% stops in actual shootings
** 357mag in 4" revolver is still No. 1 at 96%, but the smaller semi-autos are nearly 50% smaller and much more concealable and much more popular with CCW holders for that reason.
2.While the top 3 stoppers in ultra compact guns are statisically equal in stopping power, the 357sig is probably the most accurate of the 3 top loads. Since the first three rules of surviving a gun fight are:
1. Shot Placement
2. Shot Placement
3. Shot Placement
The most accurate round wins.
3. Of these top 3 rounds in ultra compact guns, the 357sig is probably the most managable in the recoil department, considerably smaller than the compact 45's and considerably more accurate than the 40's.
4. One of the reasons that the Texas DPS switched to this caliber is the anecdotal evidence coming back from LEO's in their own department citing actual shootings where the "struck by lightining" effect of a single shot of 357sig has been observed.
So at present, the 357sig has the edge in the class of gun that is coming to be the most popular class of handgun for defense - the ultra compact gun in major caliber. While these top 3 may be about equal, it is hard to simply disregard the top performing caliber in this pouplar category.
Roll Tide
cratz2
Member
I think the 9mm, 357 SIG, 40S&W, 10mm and 45ACP are the top five choices in self defensive chamberings in pistols. A reliable gun loaded with top ammo in any cartridge will do a reasonable job of doing what a handgun can be expected to do... I just don't see why there is always such arguing over trivialities...
If shooting a bad guy through a car door, I'd probably favor the 357 SIG. If shooting directly into soft tissue, I'd lean towards the 45ACP. For general every day carry by a civilian, I could live with any of the five as long as I was comfortable with the platform.
Having said that, I daily carry a 9mm and I can't personally see making the jump to 357 SIG in the same platform. I'd rather make the jump to 40S&W or even... shudder... 45GAP.
As to the original question, I don't believe it will be fading away into oblivion anytime soon. It is a formidable cartridge, esp for highway patrol and state police as well as many other users. As lawdog pointed out, it has been adopted and/or issued by several major agencies and I just don't think it will be reduced to 41AE status anytime soon.
If shooting a bad guy through a car door, I'd probably favor the 357 SIG. If shooting directly into soft tissue, I'd lean towards the 45ACP. For general every day carry by a civilian, I could live with any of the five as long as I was comfortable with the platform.
Having said that, I daily carry a 9mm and I can't personally see making the jump to 357 SIG in the same platform. I'd rather make the jump to 40S&W or even... shudder... 45GAP.
As to the original question, I don't believe it will be fading away into oblivion anytime soon. It is a formidable cartridge, esp for highway patrol and state police as well as many other users. As lawdog pointed out, it has been adopted and/or issued by several major agencies and I just don't think it will be reduced to 41AE status anytime soon.
"1. There is a prominent trend for major calibers in small packages (i.e. Glock, Kahr, Kel-Tec) due to CCW laws being passed in most states now. The 357sig has the best stopping record in barrels 4" or less**:
357sig - Rem 125gr JHP - 91% stops in actual shootings
45acp - Rem 185 gr GS - 90% stops in actual shootings
40s&w - 3 different loads Speer 155gr GD, Rem 165gr GS, Corbon 135gr JHP -
89% stops in actual shootings"
While it was nice of you to take the portions of the marshall and sanow study which most endorse your argument, even their evidence has various .45, 9mm, and .40 loads exceeding 91% if I recall. I think they even show a .380 load having a 91% stop rate. But that M&S data is damn near useless. It has so many flaws it needs to be completely ignored. There are only two things that are really comparable when talking about effectiveness, in my opinion: penetration and expansion.
"** 357mag in 4" revolver is still No. 1 at 96%, but the smaller semi-autos are nearly 50% smaller and much more concealable and much more popular with CCW holders for that reason."
Even if M&S data didn't have .357 mag being the king of that hill, it would still be popular as a result of the popularity of the round and the revolver package.
"2.While the top 3 stoppers in ultra compact guns are statisically equal in stopping power, the 357sig is probably the most accurate of the 3 top loads. Since the first three rules of surviving a gun fight are:
1. Shot Placement
2. Shot Placement
3. Shot Placement
The most accurate round wins."
I've yet to notice a real difference between various rounds fired from the same gun. There is nothing magic about the .357 sig which makes it seek its target regardless of shooter input.
"3. Of these top 3 rounds in ultra compact guns, the 357sig is probably the most managable in the recoil department, considerably smaller than the compact 45's and considerably more accurate than the 40's."
While it may the most managable of those three, if you put 9mm in there you find yourself in the #2 spot for managable recoil.
"4. One of the reasons that the Texas DPS switched to this caliber is the anecdotal evidence coming back from LEO's in their own department citing actual shootings where the "struck by lightining" effect of a single shot of 357sig has been observed."
A lot of stories get told in Texas. Of the millions of Texas tales, exactly four of them are actually true.
"So at present, the 357sig has the edge in the class of gun that is coming to be the most popular class of handgun for defense - the ultra compact gun in major caliber. While these top 3 may be about equal, it is hard to simply disregard the top performing caliber in this pouplar category."
Top performer? In which category? It doesn't beat .45 or .40 in expansion. It doesn't beat 9mm in managable recoil or capacity. It may beat some types of .40, .45, or 9mm in penetration but lose to others depending on which .357 sig you use. I think it is only just as good as the other major calibers out there. Not an unignorable magic sword.
To address the original post:
That said, I think it will fall into the niche market category. Enough people still consider the .40 to be the unnecessary compromise between .45 and 9mm. While LEAs may have taken to the .40, it doesn't seem to me that shooters have embraced it at a level nearly proportional to the number of LEOs using it. I don't think the market is there for the .357 sig. Making a round that is the bastard child of the .40 and 9mm may just be sticking a hose in the ocean. I do like the round, though. I prefer shooting it over .40, but not over 9mm or .45.
357sig - Rem 125gr JHP - 91% stops in actual shootings
45acp - Rem 185 gr GS - 90% stops in actual shootings
40s&w - 3 different loads Speer 155gr GD, Rem 165gr GS, Corbon 135gr JHP -
89% stops in actual shootings"
While it was nice of you to take the portions of the marshall and sanow study which most endorse your argument, even their evidence has various .45, 9mm, and .40 loads exceeding 91% if I recall. I think they even show a .380 load having a 91% stop rate. But that M&S data is damn near useless. It has so many flaws it needs to be completely ignored. There are only two things that are really comparable when talking about effectiveness, in my opinion: penetration and expansion.
"** 357mag in 4" revolver is still No. 1 at 96%, but the smaller semi-autos are nearly 50% smaller and much more concealable and much more popular with CCW holders for that reason."
Even if M&S data didn't have .357 mag being the king of that hill, it would still be popular as a result of the popularity of the round and the revolver package.
"2.While the top 3 stoppers in ultra compact guns are statisically equal in stopping power, the 357sig is probably the most accurate of the 3 top loads. Since the first three rules of surviving a gun fight are:
1. Shot Placement
2. Shot Placement
3. Shot Placement
The most accurate round wins."
I've yet to notice a real difference between various rounds fired from the same gun. There is nothing magic about the .357 sig which makes it seek its target regardless of shooter input.
"3. Of these top 3 rounds in ultra compact guns, the 357sig is probably the most managable in the recoil department, considerably smaller than the compact 45's and considerably more accurate than the 40's."
While it may the most managable of those three, if you put 9mm in there you find yourself in the #2 spot for managable recoil.
"4. One of the reasons that the Texas DPS switched to this caliber is the anecdotal evidence coming back from LEO's in their own department citing actual shootings where the "struck by lightining" effect of a single shot of 357sig has been observed."
A lot of stories get told in Texas. Of the millions of Texas tales, exactly four of them are actually true.
"So at present, the 357sig has the edge in the class of gun that is coming to be the most popular class of handgun for defense - the ultra compact gun in major caliber. While these top 3 may be about equal, it is hard to simply disregard the top performing caliber in this pouplar category."
Top performer? In which category? It doesn't beat .45 or .40 in expansion. It doesn't beat 9mm in managable recoil or capacity. It may beat some types of .40, .45, or 9mm in penetration but lose to others depending on which .357 sig you use. I think it is only just as good as the other major calibers out there. Not an unignorable magic sword.
To address the original post:
That said, I think it will fall into the niche market category. Enough people still consider the .40 to be the unnecessary compromise between .45 and 9mm. While LEAs may have taken to the .40, it doesn't seem to me that shooters have embraced it at a level nearly proportional to the number of LEOs using it. I don't think the market is there for the .357 sig. Making a round that is the bastard child of the .40 and 9mm may just be sticking a hose in the ocean. I do like the round, though. I prefer shooting it over .40, but not over 9mm or .45.
MJRW,
I would not swallow everything I read over at firearms tactical (I read it a long time ago), although there is some very good information there about different rounds. We are having this discussion about M&S in another thread here. You may want to check out some of that discussion.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93133
1. The 9mm only has one round at 91% and it is +P+ so it will void your warranty on most guns and will probably shoot most small guns loose in short order. I have never seen ANY 380 round at 91%. Tops for the 380 is 71%, only slightly better than the 32acp and the 38 snubsnose at 66% and 67% respectively. The best standard velocity 9MM load is 82%, about half way between the 380 and the top major calibers.
2. That same 91% load drops to 84% effectiveness when shot out of 4" barrels or less (which is the class of guns I was discussing in my previous post on this thread.) Likewise, the loads I listed for the 45 and 40 are the very best loads in barrels 4" or less, not loads taken out of context to prove my point. Taking the top numbers for a caliber IN FULL SIZE GUNS and assuming those numbers apply to COMPACT SIZE GUNS is a VERY COMMON MISTAKE.
3. That +P+ 9mm load in a 4" barrel or less probably does not have less recoil than the 357sig, even though it has much less stopping power in short barrels.
4. You got me on the Texas tall tales. I can't argue with you much on that point (I lived in Texas for about 6 years), except I think that Texas DPS officiers know where the tall tales stop when discussing a subject that could mean life or death for themselves or their brother or sister officiers.
5. I never claimed there to be anything "magic" about the 357sig, but it is the top stopper, marginally, in barrels 4" or less (except the 357mag out of a revolver) as I stated above. In full size guns I prefer the 357mag revolver or the 45acp for personal defense. Even in a full size gun, you have to push the 9mm so far past safe pressures to get comparable stopping numbers that I am just not comfortable with that. If you get a little bullet setback in a 9mm +P+ round, you could wreck a gun and maybe your own face while you are at it. When I want the most effective round in the smallest package, the 40s&w or the 357sig definitely beat everything else (but I am EXTREMELY careful about bullet setback with these rounds as well, even though these guns are designed for the higher pressures.) I carry an AMT BACKUP in 40s&w quite often. I may switch to the 357sig in the same gun after I have had a chance to test fire enough rounds in the gun to prove it to be 100% reliable (like it is with the 40s&w.) I may stick with the 40s&w though, because Corbon has their Power Ball ammo with the polymer tip and a rolled groove on the case behind the bearing surface on the bullet. This makes bullet setback VERY unlikely in this round and it is my carry load mainly for that reason. I understand that some 357sig bullets are actually superglued into the cases because there is so little bullet to case bearing surface due to the bottleneck case. That, to me, is the biggest drawback of the 357sig round in general. It must be pointed out the the 357sig must be generally safe in this respect since it has been adopted by so many LEO agencies.
Best Regards,
Roll Tide
I would not swallow everything I read over at firearms tactical (I read it a long time ago), although there is some very good information there about different rounds. We are having this discussion about M&S in another thread here. You may want to check out some of that discussion.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93133
1. The 9mm only has one round at 91% and it is +P+ so it will void your warranty on most guns and will probably shoot most small guns loose in short order. I have never seen ANY 380 round at 91%. Tops for the 380 is 71%, only slightly better than the 32acp and the 38 snubsnose at 66% and 67% respectively. The best standard velocity 9MM load is 82%, about half way between the 380 and the top major calibers.
2. That same 91% load drops to 84% effectiveness when shot out of 4" barrels or less (which is the class of guns I was discussing in my previous post on this thread.) Likewise, the loads I listed for the 45 and 40 are the very best loads in barrels 4" or less, not loads taken out of context to prove my point. Taking the top numbers for a caliber IN FULL SIZE GUNS and assuming those numbers apply to COMPACT SIZE GUNS is a VERY COMMON MISTAKE.
3. That +P+ 9mm load in a 4" barrel or less probably does not have less recoil than the 357sig, even though it has much less stopping power in short barrels.
4. You got me on the Texas tall tales. I can't argue with you much on that point (I lived in Texas for about 6 years), except I think that Texas DPS officiers know where the tall tales stop when discussing a subject that could mean life or death for themselves or their brother or sister officiers.
5. I never claimed there to be anything "magic" about the 357sig, but it is the top stopper, marginally, in barrels 4" or less (except the 357mag out of a revolver) as I stated above. In full size guns I prefer the 357mag revolver or the 45acp for personal defense. Even in a full size gun, you have to push the 9mm so far past safe pressures to get comparable stopping numbers that I am just not comfortable with that. If you get a little bullet setback in a 9mm +P+ round, you could wreck a gun and maybe your own face while you are at it. When I want the most effective round in the smallest package, the 40s&w or the 357sig definitely beat everything else (but I am EXTREMELY careful about bullet setback with these rounds as well, even though these guns are designed for the higher pressures.) I carry an AMT BACKUP in 40s&w quite often. I may switch to the 357sig in the same gun after I have had a chance to test fire enough rounds in the gun to prove it to be 100% reliable (like it is with the 40s&w.) I may stick with the 40s&w though, because Corbon has their Power Ball ammo with the polymer tip and a rolled groove on the case behind the bearing surface on the bullet. This makes bullet setback VERY unlikely in this round and it is my carry load mainly for that reason. I understand that some 357sig bullets are actually superglued into the cases because there is so little bullet to case bearing surface due to the bottleneck case. That, to me, is the biggest drawback of the 357sig round in general. It must be pointed out the the 357sig must be generally safe in this respect since it has been adopted by so many LEO agencies.
Best Regards,
Roll Tide
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When did I ever reference firearmstactical.com? I didn't. You seem to zealously believe in the M&S information even though it is clear from simple inspection that it has some major flaws.
1. Why are you talking standard velocity when 9mm is safely capable of more? I mean if the goal is to get "stopping power", why are we excluding some rounds which make your poster child seem less relatively effective.
2. Do those same numbers drop for .357 out of compact guns? What are the "stopping power" stats for .357 sig out of full sized vs compact guns? You never addressed that at all and the numbers from your post I found correspond to full size guns. Taking the top numbers for a caliber IN FULL SIZE GUNS and assuming those numbers apply to COMPACT SIZE GUNS is a VERY COMMON MISTAKE.
3. What is the "stopping power" of a 115 or 125 grain +p+ load out of a short barrel?
4. No comment.
5. "It must be pointed out the the 357sig must be generally safe in this respect since it has been adopted by so many LEO agencies." No, it mustn't be. One has nothing to do with the other.
1. Why are you talking standard velocity when 9mm is safely capable of more? I mean if the goal is to get "stopping power", why are we excluding some rounds which make your poster child seem less relatively effective.
2. Do those same numbers drop for .357 out of compact guns? What are the "stopping power" stats for .357 sig out of full sized vs compact guns? You never addressed that at all and the numbers from your post I found correspond to full size guns. Taking the top numbers for a caliber IN FULL SIZE GUNS and assuming those numbers apply to COMPACT SIZE GUNS is a VERY COMMON MISTAKE.
3. What is the "stopping power" of a 115 or 125 grain +p+ load out of a short barrel?
4. No comment.
5. "It must be pointed out the the 357sig must be generally safe in this respect since it has been adopted by so many LEO agencies." No, it mustn't be. One has nothing to do with the other.
fastbolt
Member
Well, it's been about a year since I've seen this particular thread ... and very little has changed, including my opinions.
The 357SIG hasn't yet taken the world by storm ... it still seems to be much more popular among gun magazine writers and the general public than among L/E agencies ... and people are still discussing the M&S publications (which is probably good for commercial sales, if nothing else) ...
Winchester has provided a new Bonded 357SIG load, though, which appears to offer some improvement over the T-Series at the same velocity (1350fps as factory rated). The published factory testing indicates the potential for the new Bonded 357SIG load to perhaps "equal" the performance in the Auto Glass Barrier test of the Winchester .40 S&W, .45 ACP & 45 G.A.P. offerings in the T-Series line. On the other hand, while it appears to offer the user a bit "more" potential penetration in some of the other Ballistics test situations, like the Bare Gel, 4-Ply Denim & Heavy Cloth testing, it seems to exhibit just a bit "less" penetration in the Steel Barrier test than the T-Series 357SIG load.
It's sort of interesting that the new Bonded load in 357SIG just about "duplicates" the performance of the 147gr 9mm T-Series load, even in the Steel test, with an "edge" going to the 147gr load regarding expansion ... with the exception of the Auto Glass test, in which the 357SIG offers a slight advantage.
Aside from increased muzzle velocity, muzzle blast & perceived recoil ... the 357SIG is still apparently offering the reduced capacity of .40 S&W pistols, and the defensive "performance" of some of the better 9mm rounds. Granted, a lot of folks may enjoy an exhilarating range session, due to the "fun" of increased muzzle blast and some snappier perceived recoil in some loads.
It's still just another choice ... and I think the introduction of the 45 G.A.P. is going to eclipse the 357SIG for a while, if only because it's now being offered in 230gr loads as well as the earlier 185gr & 200gr loads ... and the "mystique" of the .45 ACP attracts some folks, and it's produced in a smaller platform similar to the 9mm & .40 S&W pistols (and yes, the 357SIG) ...
Time will tell ...
The 357SIG hasn't yet taken the world by storm ... it still seems to be much more popular among gun magazine writers and the general public than among L/E agencies ... and people are still discussing the M&S publications (which is probably good for commercial sales, if nothing else) ...
Winchester has provided a new Bonded 357SIG load, though, which appears to offer some improvement over the T-Series at the same velocity (1350fps as factory rated). The published factory testing indicates the potential for the new Bonded 357SIG load to perhaps "equal" the performance in the Auto Glass Barrier test of the Winchester .40 S&W, .45 ACP & 45 G.A.P. offerings in the T-Series line. On the other hand, while it appears to offer the user a bit "more" potential penetration in some of the other Ballistics test situations, like the Bare Gel, 4-Ply Denim & Heavy Cloth testing, it seems to exhibit just a bit "less" penetration in the Steel Barrier test than the T-Series 357SIG load.
It's sort of interesting that the new Bonded load in 357SIG just about "duplicates" the performance of the 147gr 9mm T-Series load, even in the Steel test, with an "edge" going to the 147gr load regarding expansion ... with the exception of the Auto Glass test, in which the 357SIG offers a slight advantage.
Aside from increased muzzle velocity, muzzle blast & perceived recoil ... the 357SIG is still apparently offering the reduced capacity of .40 S&W pistols, and the defensive "performance" of some of the better 9mm rounds. Granted, a lot of folks may enjoy an exhilarating range session, due to the "fun" of increased muzzle blast and some snappier perceived recoil in some loads.
It's still just another choice ... and I think the introduction of the 45 G.A.P. is going to eclipse the 357SIG for a while, if only because it's now being offered in 230gr loads as well as the earlier 185gr & 200gr loads ... and the "mystique" of the .45 ACP attracts some folks, and it's produced in a smaller platform similar to the 9mm & .40 S&W pistols (and yes, the 357SIG) ...
Time will tell ...
fastbolt
Member
Oh yeah, since some folks bring up the subject of dogs every once in a while ...
Dogs acting in a feral manner, and presenting the immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death to a person, are difficult to "stop". I've listened to other cops discuss their experiences, too, including how their newest "powerful" .40 S&W pistols "failed" to quickly stop a charging, threatening, vicious dog with multiple hits. It can happen.
On the other hand, I know a fellow that reacted to an attack by a large dog (pit), and his "close combat" single shot with a generic 147gr 9mm JHP "dropped" the dog in mid-leap, killing it, as it was described. What's that mean? Is the 147gr 9mm JHP suddenly the "best" load & caliber for this sort of perceived danger? Of course not.
It may mean the fellow's training and reaction under the stress of a perceived deadly threat was sufficient for the situation, though, and he experienced proper shot placement for his needs at the time ...
These are just defensive handguns, you know ... not rifles or shotguns.
Dogs acting in a feral manner, and presenting the immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death to a person, are difficult to "stop". I've listened to other cops discuss their experiences, too, including how their newest "powerful" .40 S&W pistols "failed" to quickly stop a charging, threatening, vicious dog with multiple hits. It can happen.
On the other hand, I know a fellow that reacted to an attack by a large dog (pit), and his "close combat" single shot with a generic 147gr 9mm JHP "dropped" the dog in mid-leap, killing it, as it was described. What's that mean? Is the 147gr 9mm JHP suddenly the "best" load & caliber for this sort of perceived danger? Of course not.
It may mean the fellow's training and reaction under the stress of a perceived deadly threat was sufficient for the situation, though, and he experienced proper shot placement for his needs at the time ...
These are just defensive handguns, you know ... not rifles or shotguns.
Tamara
Senior Member
I mostly opened this thread just out of curiousity. I was wondering how many posts it would take for jc2 to show up and start flashing .357 Magnum gang signs.
Anyhow...
Demonstrably false. .357SIG has already lasted longer as a major LE cartridge than 10mm, and is used by more agencies than 10mm was in its fifteen minute heyday. (Bear in mind, I own three 10mm's and no .357SIGs, nor do I have a desire to own any; I ain't here to flash gang signs.)
I'll remember that the next time he touts the .357 Magnum. Why not just carry a .38 Spl +P? Much less wear & tear on the gun, you know...
Anyhow...
Demonstrably false. .357SIG has already lasted longer as a major LE cartridge than 10mm, and is used by more agencies than 10mm was in its fifteen minute heyday. (Bear in mind, I own three 10mm's and no .357SIGs, nor do I have a desire to own any; I ain't here to flash gang signs.)
I'll remember that the next time he touts the .357 Magnum.
Why not just carry a .38 Spl +P? Much less wear & tear on the gun, you know...Hey, Tam, you didn't open this thread-- walking arsenal did (almost a year ago--6 Aug 03). I don't think you even posted in this thread before today, did you? Heck, the stuff your quoting I posted almost a year ago.
I though part of your charter as a moderator was to try keep personal crap like this from happening--not trying to stir it up. That's not exactly the "High Road" is it?
BTW, I only "tout" the .357 Magnum when some of the 10mm "true-believers" become a little to fervent in the proselyting (and to occassionally pull their chain). It's good to remind them that the lowly 75 year old .357 Magnum actually generates more KE out of a four-inch revolver than a 10mm does out of Glock 20.
When it comes to carrying, I never have (and never would) carry the super hot 125-grain SJHPs. I do like the 145-grain Silvertip though, but to be honest, I'd just as soon carry the old FBI load if lead wasn't such a mess. Heck, I carry (and recommend) the 147-grain Ranger T in 9x19. I'm definitley not a "velocity freak."
You're barking' up the wrong tree here, ol' gal!
I though part of your charter as a moderator was to try keep personal crap like this from happening--not trying to stir it up. That's not exactly the "High Road" is it?
BTW, I only "tout" the .357 Magnum when some of the 10mm "true-believers" become a little to fervent in the proselyting (and to occassionally pull their chain). It's good to remind them that the lowly 75 year old .357 Magnum actually generates more KE out of a four-inch revolver than a 10mm does out of Glock 20.
When it comes to carrying, I never have (and never would) carry the super hot 125-grain SJHPs. I do like the 145-grain Silvertip though, but to be honest, I'd just as soon carry the old FBI load if lead wasn't such a mess. Heck, I carry (and recommend) the 147-grain Ranger T in 9x19. I'm definitley not a "velocity freak."
You're barking' up the wrong tree here, ol' gal!
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BryanP
Member
Hey JC2, as a fellow .357 magnum enthusiast I have to jump in here.
I suspect that by "opened" she meant "clicked on the thread to see what was in here", not "started." I opened a good book today but I didn't write it.
She may be a moderator but moderators are still entitled to their opinions. They're even entitled to make jokes and poke fun at people. I didn't see any personal attack in her message. Just a wink and a grin.
Looks like Tamara was pulling your chain and you fell for it.
I suspect that by "opened" she meant "clicked on the thread to see what was in here", not "started." I opened a good book today but I didn't write it.
She may be a moderator but moderators are still entitled to their opinions. They're even entitled to make jokes and poke fun at people. I didn't see any personal attack in her message. Just a wink and a grin.
Looks like Tamara was pulling your chain and you fell for it.
- Status
