walking arsenal
Member
what does velocity get you? have someone hit you with a volkswagon doing 5 mph then 15, 10 mph difference right? which one hurts worse?
...have someone hit you with a volkswagon doing 5 mph then 15, 10 mph difference right? which one hurts worse?
The results that I've seen from LE shootings has the 9x19 Ranger T loads (RA9T and RA9TP) running neck and neck with the 357 Sig--i.e, no significant difference. In fact, the last information I've seen on the RA9T had it effective in two shots or less in 113 out of 114 shootings (with the one shooting being simultaneous multiple hits so no it didn't count). The 357 Sig is just plain not beating the performance of the RA9T.Street results with the 357 SIG are pretty impressive,
First, there is ammunition in that range that does not deliver adequate anti-personnel performance because of bullet design. There is plenty of ammunition that falls outside that "sweet spot" that delivers as good (or better) results (e.g., the aforementioned RA9T). Your inclusion of the 165-grain .45 ACP is at best problematical in that they really has not been an extensive of this weight in the .45 ACP (and the fact the top-performing bullets in .45 ACP are all 230-grain). While the 125-grain SJHP .357 Magnum had fearsome reputation in the sixties and seventies, we need to remember a couple points: first and foremost, bullet design has come a long, long way in the last ten years (five years for that matter)--that energy level is no longer required to obtain adequate bullet performance; and secondly, in real life (and well-documented I might add), at least one major LEA has stepped up and publicly admitted that the 180-grain .40 S&W ( a round outside your "sweet spot") performed better in actual use (actual "street results" for their agency) than the mythical .357 Magnum 125-grain SJHP it replaced.There seems to be a "sweet spot" in handgun performance where energy is above 450-500 fpe, velocity is above 1100 fps,
Regardless of the Velocity and testing statistics, most people I know aren't blobs of gelatin nor do they wear 12 layers of denim. Regardless, the true proof is in actual use. Reports from police state how it has taken ragin pitbulls down on a single shot where 9mm takes 4-8. It takes armed felons down in one shot even when not hitting them in the chest. When youre defending yourself you should be thinking "how big of a bloody hole can I blow through this guys face" but rather incapacitate him as quickly and accuratley as possible. .357 SIG seems to manage, from the reports given by LEO's, better than 9mm and even .45 when shooting at auto glass. Simply it is more effecient to have a super fast round that can strike an opponent down as quickly as possible. If you can spray 25 9mm rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him its a lot less effecient than striking him down quickly from the same distance with 2 shots. .357 SIG not only has more outdoor animal protection use, but it's great for close environments as well especially where metal or glass is in the way. I don't think price matters when when your life is on the line and that extra 5 rounds won't matter if none of them knock them down. As more and more LEO's and agencies use it, the bigger the statistics and stories will grow, the more appealing it will be, and the more agencies and ranges will offer it. Its a rising star in terms of self-defense against humans and animals alike and will come to be known as such the more it is used.
Yep--that's just about as good as the reports can get that say, "they all fall to hardball," or "the .45 ACP is effective 19 out of 20 times will ball ammo." What is really happening is actual LE usage is that it is performing no better than the top 9x19 loads (or any other top service loads). It's proving just another choice with nothing to distinguish (except maybe noise).Reports from police state how it has taken ragin pitbulls down on a single shot where 9mm takes 4-8. It takes armed felons down in one shot even when not hitting them in the chest.
By the same token, "you can spray 18 (taking into the reduced capacity) 357 SIG rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him, but its lots less efficient than striking him down from the same distance with 2 [well-placed 9x19] shots."If you can spray 25 9mm rounds at a felon from 30 yards and injure him its a lot less effecient than striking him down quickly from the same distance with 2 shots.
BUT the 9x19 will "knock them down" (and has been "knocking them down") just as well as the 357 SIG. Price will matter when you shoot more, practice more, maybe get some good training, and become more proficient with your weapon because you can afford it.I don't think price matters when when your life is on the line and that extra 5 rounds won't matter if none of them knock them down.
BUT that's not how it's working out. As more and LEOs and agencies use it, the statistics are showing it is no better (or no worse) than any of the other service calibres with which it is competing. It is becoming clear it is just another choice. If anything, its growth has pretty much leveled out (almost to the stagnation point). Its use is not growing all that rapidly at all. It's just not "taking off."As more and more LEO's and agencies use it, the bigger the statistics and stories will grow, the more appealing it will be, and the more agencies and ranges will offer it.
Wishful thinking. It is proving no more capable than any of the other service rounds, and in fact is just another choice.Its a rising star in terms of self-defense against humans and animals alike and will come to be known as such the more it is used.
IIRC the most significant difference is related to bullet construction. I think the renowned 125gr .357 Magnum bullets that established this cartridge's reputation violently expanded and even fragmented in the bad guys, causing much trauma.Does the .357 Sig 125gr load really compare to the .357 Magnum 125gr load?
How much faster is the .357 Sig 125gr than the 9mm +P+ 125gr?
127 @ 1250 ft/sec (Winchester 127gr +P+ 9x19)
or
125 @ 1,400 ft/sec (Pro Load .357 Sig Gold Dot)
125 @ 1,425 ft/sec (Cor-Bon .357 Sig JHP)
That's the key. It's all about the shooter, what fits the shooter, and with what the shooter is comfortable. When it comes to the service calibres, the calibre of the weapon does not make a difference--the shooter and the weapon do.I'd rather rely on what I know I can shoot well than worry about what does what to blocks of jello or clay .
While it has enjoyed lmited some success in the LE market, it is really very, very small in terms of both total LE agencies and individual LEOs--the 10mm probably saw wider use as a LE round in its time.
Nobody said the 357 Sig wasn't faster, you just don't gain anything in terminal effectiveness from that few fps difference in MV.
Hey, Tam, you didn't open this thread-- walking arsenal did (almost a year ago--6 Aug 03). I don't think you even posted in this thread before today, did you? Heck, the stuff your quoting I posted almost a year ago.
I though part of your charter as a moderator was to try keep personal crap like this from happening--not trying to stir it up. That's not exactly the "High Road" is it?
BTW, I only "tout" the .357 Magnum when some of the 10mm "true-believers" become a little to fervent in the proselyting (and to occassionally pull their chain).