.358 9mm cast loads?

[loose noose]

Well I tried some 9mm cast bullets in my 92FS, which has been swaged at .356. In fact my Lyman mold drops them right at .358, using #2 lead which drops them right at 119-121 grains. I used a soft lube SPG (primarily for black powder), and the same results using Red Angel hard lube.

The results were terrible if I say the least. Terrible accuracy, as well as a lot of leading, contributing to the inaccuracy. Note I was using 3.9grains of Bullseye. The first 5 rounds would stay nice and close but the other 5 rounds would go into orbit. This is after cleaning the bore after the first 10 rounds on each different lubed bullets?

I haven't had any problems using this in .356 sized #2 lead, and using Red Angel hard lube. No leading, and accuracy is excellent. The weight of the bullet is the same in both instances, as is the charge of powder.

My chronograph averaged the loads using the Red Angel at 1118.2 with a deviation of 12.2, The SPG averaged about the same 1127.6 deviation 8.6.

My main concern is the leading using the .358 sizing die? Any comments on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[murf]

if you slug your barrel, the groove diameter will probably be around .356". if so, the .358" diameter bullets are too big. my bhp slugs at .3575" diameter and likes .357" jacketed and .358" lead bullets quite well, the .355" and .356" not so well (not very accurate).

your chamber may not be large enough to take the extra diameter of the case mouth with those larger bullets and your throat may be too small to take them. you could be shaving lead when the bullet enters the throat and after a few rounds the lead buildup will cause even more problems.

murf

murf

 

[loose noose]

murf, I meant I slugged the bore on my 92FS not swaged, and it came out right at .356. The .356 lubrisizer using the Red Angel shoots really well in that pistol, also the rounds after reloaded pass the drop test with no problem, and also I've got the Midway Max Cartridge Gauge, and again no problem.

The vast majority of the leading seems to be about half way up the bore.

 

[grubbylabs]

If your slugging out at .356 you should be .357 or .358. Bullet fit is more important than lube.

 

[tyeo098]

Where did the lead show up in the barrel? Halfway down?

Use a proper lube like Darr, which is super easy to make.

 

[loose noose]

grubbylabs, I've tried the .358, and that is where my leading has been the worst, regardless of what type of lube I'm using. I too thought that using a .001-.002 bigger diameter lead cast bullet that the leading would disappear. My point is that I get very little leading and fairly good accuracy using a .356 bullet using #2 cast lead.

I'm going to order a .357 sizing die for my Lyman Lubrisizer and see if I can't get much better accuracy, also I might add a little bit more tin in order to get the lead a bit harder. I had some linotype somewhere but I'll be darned if I can find it, doubt that I used it all up as I had about 50#s of it about 6-8months ago. Sure is a pain getting old.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I use a similar mould and have used that load and I use SPG lube.

I think it may be your alloy.

The 9mm and the Bullseye powder are rather hard on a lead bullet. I've used .357 and .358 sizing for my several 9mm handguns, and though several shoot more accurately with .357" sizing, the ones that will permit a load with a .358" bullet to chamber, they don't shoot them manifestly more or less accurate than the .356" sizing however.
FWIW, I size all my .308" bullets for various .30 and .303 caliber rifles to .311 and they often are more accurate with this size than any other, so, being .002" oversize is often a benefit in the 9mm. One of my guns won't accept a .358" bullet. Chamber is too tight.

I suggest adding some 95/5 "leadfree" solder to your lead mix and try again. I use w/w metal with the "lead-free solder added. Typically, 2-3oz per 20lb pot. The 95/5 is 95% tin/5% Antimony. It significantly improves castablilty and hardness of the lead. I have to do this to get acceptable accuracy with the 9mm in my S&W Performance Ctr Match pistols. These guns with suitable ammo will shoot 1-1.5" groups at 50yds. They quickly and reliably tell you if there's an accuracy problem with your cast bullet loads.
Also, try your bullet/gun with that weight bullet over 5.2gr of Hodgdon's LongShot.
My guns adore this load... I tied a perfect score/national record in NRA PPC with the above load in both match 7 and 8 (7-15yds and 25yd stages). Guns/ammo are capable of 1500, me, not so much...

I run bullets (gaschecked rifle) to 2,250fps with acceptable accuracy using the SPG lube. I cast a pure lead 400gr HollowBase bullet lubed with SPG for a friends Sharps Reproduction. It is 2moa at 300yds at ~1,300fps m/v. So, it's not the lube !!!

 

[USSR]

If you're getting leading from .358" bullets that chamber okay, then your problem is either your alloy or your lube or both. I run .358" bullets in .380 ACP and 9mm all the time without issues.

Don

 

[GLOOB]

Bore has been slugged. Bullets are fouling, despite being sized 2 mics over. Something is wrong.

Have you pulled some of your bullets to measure the base? The case can swage down the bullet. I load mine as dropped, at around .3575" using straight wheel weights. I had problems. I measured some of my pulled 9mm bullets at .353" at the base. Changing nothing but my flare/expander die, I went from BAD fouling and unstabilized bullets to no leading and great accuracy.

I'm going to order a .357 sizing die for my Lyman Lubrisizer and see if I can't get much better accuracy, also I might add a little bit more tin in order to get the lead a bit harder.

Sizing smaller can't help too much, if at all. Making the alloy harder might help, significantly, if your cases are swaging the bullets. In fact, before I changed the expander, I had less fouling and better accuracy (still not good, but usable out to 25 yards) when I was using harder commercial bullets. But the expander is the definitive fix. My softer bullets now shoot just as cleanly and accurately as any jacketed bullet, just by changing the expander. (I'm sure those commercial bullets would be shooting better, too, but I ran out).

I use Lee pistol dies. What I did was to buy a 38SW expander plug for a few dollars and drop that into my 9mm expander die, per recommendation by someone on the Cast Boolit forum. It's not just that it's 1 mic bigger. The big difference is the 9mm expander barely flares the mouth. The 38SW plug expands the case throughout where the bullet sits. I have read that the 9mm Lyman M die is also good.

 

[sexybeast]

If i can put in my 2cents, drop the powder load from 4.0 to 3.5gr. Don't change anything else and see how they shoot. I know a few bullseye shooters that really like .001 to .002 oversize with soft lead. But they shoot very light loads that are "very" accurate and don't lead up the barrel at all.
9mm is a different animal, higher pressure with softer bullet will cause problems much sooner.
give it a try and let us know.

 

[Schwing]

I had a similar issue with my 9mm loads. My 92fs slugged at .357 so I sized them to .358 just sure that they would be accurate. They sucked. I had fliers and leading that no amount or type of lube seemed to help.

After a lot of fiddling, I worked up loads going the opposite direction. When I got down to 3.0 of Bullseye, they shot nearly perfectly. I chronograph them at about 900 fps out of my 92fs and about 1100 out of my carbine. I have no cycling problems even though they are on the very light side.

I have also switched to powder coating my 9mm bullets. That is another discussion but I have had no leading since making the change regardless of the load, or bullet diameter.

I am still in search of that perfect 9mm load. I have only been doing this for a little over a year but I have many (what I consider to be) perfect loads for .45ACP, .44 mag, .357 etc. What I don't have is a perfect 9mm load. It seems to be a little more elusive.

 

[loose noose]

I think I just might try dropping the charge down to 3.5 grains of Bullseye and see if that make much of a difference there sexy beast, and then I might even try going down as low as 3.0 Schwing. Believe me at this point I'll try just about anything. I've just about perfected the .380, 38/357, 44/44Mag, as well as the .45acp, but this 9mm is really starting to throw me a curve. Do appreciate all the advice and help though.

 

[loose noose]

sexy beast, hit the hammer right on the head, or something like that. I went and loaded some of my .356 cast bullets lubed with Red Angel and viola, no leading and excellent accuracy. The rounds I had loaded with the harder lead, but resized to .358, and lubed with the SPG, and 4.0 grains of Bullseye were not near as accurate however, there was no leading.

I definitely want to thank all of you folks who helped me on this.

 

[sexybeast]

You are very welcome.