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greyling22
Member
I've got some n320. think that might work?
leading
- Thread starter greyling22
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DUCKNDAWG
Member
It wont matter if you shoot dead soft or rock hard lead, if your bore is .356 then your cast boolit needs to be 1-2 thousanths bigger than the bore. Your getting leading from the boolit bouncing down your barrel as opposed to fitting the barrel. go to http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php so much information there
JohnM
Member
Popper, you got some 231 data, recipes?
dragon813gt
Member
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Your problem is bullet fit. It's undersized. As others have said it needs to 1 to 2 thousandths larger than the slug.
I suggest you read this as it explains a lot: www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
Brought to you by TapaTalk.
I suggest you read this as it explains a lot: www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
Brought to you by TapaTalk.
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greyling22
Member
dragon, any suggestions on why I was still leading with a .358 bullet from my 357 pile? I tried a bigger bullet fairly early on.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
With 124/125gr lead bullet I load as low as 4.0gr W231 but you can easily go up to 4.4gr if you need to. With 124gr FMJ or JHP bullets I load 4.6gr W231 and have gone up to 4.8gr with heavier slides.JohnM said:
You should always verify any load data you get on the Internet because mistakes can and will happen. This data can be verified on the Hodgdon Load Data Site.
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greyling22
Member
Update:
I reslugged the bore and as I rotated the bullet through the calipers, the bore slugged out at .355 except for one part that was .356. (that might have been an error on my part though. it was only my second bore slugging)
different version of same mold: lee 124 grn 6 cavity mold that is dropping .358 at the base very consistently. The lube rings measure less. around .355.
lead: water quenched wheel weights. ingot BHN 14.
Lube: lee alox tumble lube. coated pretty well.
My most recent, and lowest power loads yet were:
2.9grn of titegroup (925fps on the chrono) - leading and 2 keyhole out of 20
3.4grn of w231 (950 fpson chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20
5.25grn HS-6 (1025 on the chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20
Leading was fairly evenly distributed along the whole length of the barrel. They all cycled the action, but I can't go much lighter and still retain function.
Thinking maybe I was using a light load under too hard a bullet and failing to get obduration, I tried 3.7grn titegroup with a 80% lead 20% wheel weight and got 10 out of 10 keyhole. 3.7grn using a 50/50 gave me 4 of 10 keyhole.
I tried some .356 purchased lead bullets with a hard lube ring (advertised BHN 15) that did not keyhole, nor lead as much, but still left noticeable leading after 20 rounds of each:
3.8 grn titegroup
4grn w231
5.6grn HS-6
5.5grn #5
most of the leading was back by the chamber.
I pulled a loaded round apart and it was still measuring .358 at the base. the lube rings are measuring less. around .355. Cartridge OAL is 1.08.
(I have a post over on castboolits similar to this one trying to widen the pool of brilliant ideas, so if you frequent both sites, yes this is familiar post http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157586 they seem to think I am undersizing my bullets with my expander plug, but I tried their 38spl plug trick and it didn't really help any)
I reslugged the bore and as I rotated the bullet through the calipers, the bore slugged out at .355 except for one part that was .356. (that might have been an error on my part though. it was only my second bore slugging)
different version of same mold: lee 124 grn 6 cavity mold that is dropping .358 at the base very consistently. The lube rings measure less. around .355.
lead: water quenched wheel weights. ingot BHN 14.
Lube: lee alox tumble lube. coated pretty well.
My most recent, and lowest power loads yet were:
2.9grn of titegroup (925fps on the chrono) - leading and 2 keyhole out of 20
3.4grn of w231 (950 fpson chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20
5.25grn HS-6 (1025 on the chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20
Leading was fairly evenly distributed along the whole length of the barrel. They all cycled the action, but I can't go much lighter and still retain function.
Thinking maybe I was using a light load under too hard a bullet and failing to get obduration, I tried 3.7grn titegroup with a 80% lead 20% wheel weight and got 10 out of 10 keyhole. 3.7grn using a 50/50 gave me 4 of 10 keyhole.
I tried some .356 purchased lead bullets with a hard lube ring (advertised BHN 15) that did not keyhole, nor lead as much, but still left noticeable leading after 20 rounds of each:
3.8 grn titegroup
4grn w231
5.6grn HS-6
5.5grn #5
most of the leading was back by the chamber.
I pulled a loaded round apart and it was still measuring .358 at the base. the lube rings are measuring less. around .355. Cartridge OAL is 1.08.
(I have a post over on castboolits similar to this one trying to widen the pool of brilliant ideas, so if you frequent both sites, yes this is familiar post http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157586 they seem to think I am undersizing my bullets with my expander plug, but I tried their 38spl plug trick and it didn't really help any)
Certaindeaf
member
Is your sprue plate flat and square to the blocks?
You said your bore was .35/.356. Is that the max OD of the slug or in the grooves? Your Cb should be .001/2 over the max OD of the slug. Assuming your Cb is sized right, fps has to do with keyholing - speed them up. Did you try the 45/45/10 lube, applied lightly? Alox leaves a residue that can be mistaken for light leading. BHN 14 is still pretty hard. Try about 9 or so.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I agree it might be worth trying a different powder.
Titegroup is known to burn hotter then a lot of powders and cause leading when other powders don't.
The other thing you might try to do is recover some fired bullets.
See if the base shows any signs of melting, or if there is gas cutting past the side of the bullet.
The first would indicate hot burning powder, while the second would indicate a bullet size or hardness problem.
rc
Titegroup is known to burn hotter then a lot of powders and cause leading when other powders don't.
The other thing you might try to do is recover some fired bullets.
See if the base shows any signs of melting, or if there is gas cutting past the side of the bullet.
The first would indicate hot burning powder, while the second would indicate a bullet size or hardness problem.
rc
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greyling22
Member
.355/356 was the outer diameter of the slug. The widest part.
All right, I'll try and recover a bullet. It will be a while though, I get sent out to northern new mexico for work and couldn't bring my gear. Titegroup wan't my first choice, but I was trying to try something fast (titegroup), something slow-ish(hs-6), and something in the middle. (231) Is there a best powder? something for low power loads that runs at low pressure and temp? I've been thinking about buying a pound of wsf.
As far as I can tell my sprue plate is good. It's cutting square and I don't see any light between it and the blocks.
All right, I'll try and recover a bullet. It will be a while though, I get sent out to northern new mexico for work and couldn't bring my gear. Titegroup wan't my first choice, but I was trying to try something fast (titegroup), something slow-ish(hs-6), and something in the middle. (231) Is there a best powder? something for low power loads that runs at low pressure and temp? I've been thinking about buying a pound of wsf.
As far as I can tell my sprue plate is good. It's cutting square and I don't see any light between it and the blocks.
It sounds like you don't understand whas happening inside the chamber. If your bullet does not seal the throat when the round is chambered, gas will cut the bullet upon ignition. This means you are at the mercy of the throat dimensions. It means you cannot use a bullet with a .355" front band diameter. When powder ignites, the gas travels at 7000 FPS. This happens instantly. Before the bullet even starts moving, the gas is already passing it in the throat, unless the front band is a tight fit.
You said your bullet's front band is .355". Guess what? The throat is at least .357" if not larger. You need a bigger bullet. Figure out what your throat measures and then look for an appropriate slug.
You said your bullet's front band is .355". Guess what? The throat is at least .357" if not larger. You need a bigger bullet. Figure out what your throat measures and then look for an appropriate slug.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Alliant Bullseye was used very successfully driving lead bullet target and duty factory loads at low to medium velocity for about 100 years now.
Maybe try that.
Other then that, I think your water quenched 14 BNH bullets are too hard for the low velocity you are trying for.
rc
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greyling22
Member
well I tried to use a softer bullet and that was a terrible disaster. most all of them keyholed and it fouled the barrel horribly.
918v, the rear of the bullet measured out .358 at the base, and the base of the cone up front measured around .357, it was only the tumble lube rings in between those 2 that measured small.
918v, the rear of the bullet measured out .358 at the base, and the base of the cone up front measured around .357, it was only the tumble lube rings in between those 2 that measured small.
But it is the front band that seals the throat and keeps the gas from cutting on the bullet. By the time the bullet hits the rifling, the rear band has already grown under pressure. Remember, the bullet is a billion times heavier than the gas pushing it. The front band needs to be no more than .0005" smaller than the throat.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
What gun are you shooting?
Some barrels just lead, and there is no rime or reason for why they lead and another barrel doesn't.
Sometimes a good lapping & polish with JB Bore paste will stop or slow it down.
Sometimes it doesn't.
rc
Some barrels just lead, and there is no rime or reason for why they lead and another barrel doesn't.
Sometimes a good lapping & polish with JB Bore paste will stop or slow it down.
Sometimes it doesn't.
rc
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greyling22
Member
aha, that is what I did not know. the front band is what seals the throat.
RC, I'm shooting a witness elite match. it's advertised as a polygonal barrel, but it is not. I'm trying to find another 9mm to try my loads on to see if it is that gun or the ammo. if it's the gun, I'm thinking about trying to dress up one of those surplus hi-powers.
RC, I'm shooting a witness elite match. it's advertised as a polygonal barrel, but it is not. I'm trying to find another 9mm to try my loads on to see if it is that gun or the ammo. if it's the gun, I'm thinking about trying to dress up one of those surplus hi-powers.
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greyling22
Member
true. that's why I said the ingot came out at 14. I imagine the bullet is more of a 15-16, which should be strong enough for a low pressure 9 load, though some of the hardness/pressure charts indicate that what I really should have is a harder bullet.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
You can push a bullet that's 15-16 BHN to a lot higher pressures and velocities than you are. You could easily shoot them to 1200 fps without any leading under normal circumstances.
W231 is a great powder for the 9mm for both plinking and more. As for the key-holing, did you check the velocities of those rounds? You keep saying soft bullets are key-holing but bullet hardness has nothing to do with that, velocity does.
One thing, are you loose hanging the paper you're shooting or is it put up against a backer? Many time if the paper is hanging free it will move before the bullet pushes all the way through giving the appearance of key-holing.
I agree you should not use Titegroup with lead bullets. I use mostly W231 and sometimes Longshot in all my 9mm ammo...
W231 is a great powder for the 9mm for both plinking and more. As for the key-holing, did you check the velocities of those rounds? You keep saying soft bullets are key-holing but bullet hardness has nothing to do with that, velocity does.
One thing, are you loose hanging the paper you're shooting or is it put up against a backer? Many time if the paper is hanging free it will move before the bullet pushes all the way through giving the appearance of key-holing.
I agree you should not use Titegroup with lead bullets. I use mostly W231 and sometimes Longshot in all my 9mm ammo...
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