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greyling22
Member
paper is stapled against a backer. And the more frequently they keyhole, the worse the leading is inside the barrel and the worse accuracy becomes. they're stripping out inside the barrel for some reason.
leading
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LiveLife
Member
I just reread through this thread and the thread at castboolits and here are my thoughts/suggestions:
1. Factory loads shot accurate without keyholing so the barrel crown should be OK.
4. As suggested on the castboolits thread, Lee tumble lube (TL) bullet mold and lube material may be suspect. Have you considered using a different bullet mold?
1. Factory loads shot accurate without keyholing so the barrel crown should be OK.
2. Since you did not get keyholing, have you considered trying .357" sized commercial lead bullets to decrease the leading?
3. How about trying some bullets that are not water quenched? Perhaps with 3.6-4.0 gr of W231 you have on hand. As you posted, how old is that W231? Does it still have a "clean" solvent smell?
4. As suggested on the castboolits thread, Lee tumble lube (TL) bullet mold and lube material may be suspect. Have you considered using a different bullet mold?
Certaindeaf
member
I suspect your bullets are too hard and or undersize. Back in the day, I used to shoot Speer swaged 125's in 9mm at max loads. No leading and they were accurate. The slugs were dead soft.
blarby
Member
Like to point out that keyholing can be an indicator of a bullet that isn't completely round, tumbling as the gas blow by tips it leaving the bbl.
A bullet that isn't completely round would also allow some significant gas cutting, regardless of the base diameter...if it obturates and softens, but that .358 is immediately followed by a ring of say, .355...the gas would blow right through. Obturation is good, but it needs cold hard lead to hold that hot squishy lead back at the base of the bullet.
Often, home made alloys can be a little light on the tin content, or it can be unevenly distributed if not fluxed correctly. No tin in your cast = bullets that dont fill out the driving bands completely, as it cools too fast in the mold to reach the very ends.
Your wheel weight alloy combo, water quenched, is sufficiently hard to be pushed at any velocity you can achieve in a 9mm, as a few have pointed out.
LLA is just fine as a lube...also as many have pointed out.
With these things in mind, we're kinda down to two real possible problems, both of which are easy to check, and solve :
1. your throat is large, as many have pointed out is possible. If this is the case, you are going to need a custom mold...but you need to cast it in order to find out... I would consider doing the casting of it before ordering a 100+ dollar mold.
2. Your bullets aren't round enough. Easy fix : Get a sizer. As cast bullets are great... if the size is just right, and your alloy is perfect to allow the bullets to drop as close to perfection as your skill will allow. Hard to do for us casting Newbs, sometimes. A lee sizer is a great tool for assuring that your bullets are the perfect diameter.
Think they are falling the perfect diameter ? Put a few of your perfect bullets through a sizer, and watch the little lube catcher rings squish and become shiny on one side, and stay the same on the other.... or get shiny all around, or not size at all ( undersized as cast ) Even the best casters I know size their bullets for this reason. "Perfect" as cast bullets are a true rarity, the lee sizer is a great way to make "almost perfect" into "perfect" every time.
Given that the sizer is by far the cheapest of the solutions, and that you should have one anyway...I'd say try that route first.
But hey, thats just me ! And I don't know squat about casting....other than its a pain to sit in front of a 700 degree furnace on a hot sunny day.
A bullet that isn't completely round would also allow some significant gas cutting, regardless of the base diameter...if it obturates and softens, but that .358 is immediately followed by a ring of say, .355...the gas would blow right through. Obturation is good, but it needs cold hard lead to hold that hot squishy lead back at the base of the bullet.
Often, home made alloys can be a little light on the tin content, or it can be unevenly distributed if not fluxed correctly. No tin in your cast = bullets that dont fill out the driving bands completely, as it cools too fast in the mold to reach the very ends.
Your wheel weight alloy combo, water quenched, is sufficiently hard to be pushed at any velocity you can achieve in a 9mm, as a few have pointed out.
LLA is just fine as a lube...also as many have pointed out.
With these things in mind, we're kinda down to two real possible problems, both of which are easy to check, and solve :
1. your throat is large, as many have pointed out is possible. If this is the case, you are going to need a custom mold...but you need to cast it in order to find out... I would consider doing the casting of it before ordering a 100+ dollar mold.
2. Your bullets aren't round enough. Easy fix : Get a sizer. As cast bullets are great... if the size is just right, and your alloy is perfect to allow the bullets to drop as close to perfection as your skill will allow. Hard to do for us casting Newbs, sometimes. A lee sizer is a great tool for assuring that your bullets are the perfect diameter.
Think they are falling the perfect diameter ? Put a few of your perfect bullets through a sizer, and watch the little lube catcher rings squish and become shiny on one side, and stay the same on the other.... or get shiny all around, or not size at all ( undersized as cast ) Even the best casters I know size their bullets for this reason. "Perfect" as cast bullets are a true rarity, the lee sizer is a great way to make "almost perfect" into "perfect" every time.
Given that the sizer is by far the cheapest of the solutions, and that you should have one anyway...I'd say try that route first.
But hey, thats just me ! And I don't know squat about casting....other than its a pain to sit in front of a 700 degree furnace on a hot sunny day.
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Certaindeaf
member
blarby!
Hey, all very good points but I think he said they fall "as cast" to .355?
Were that the case, one could of course lap the mold bigger etc and then go from there as you said.
Hey, all very good points but I think he said they fall "as cast" to .355?
Were that the case, one could of course lap the mold bigger etc and then go from there as you said.
LiveLife
Member
I thought the OP posted the bullets were dropping .357"-.358" from the mold.
Good suggestion on running them through the sizer. Maybe the bullets are being sized as they enter the leade?
Trying the bullets without water quenching should be easy and quick with no added cost.
Good suggestion on running them through the sizer. Maybe the bullets are being sized as they enter the leade?
Trying the bullets without water quenching should be easy and quick with no added cost.
Certaindeaf
member
Ah, I hear you.. he should be all set then.. I'd a tried them as cast right off the bat but that's just me though.. I shoot .360 through a couple 9's just to save time.. they shoot just fine.
ReloaderEd
Member
cast a few more bullets: lube with valve grinding compound heavy grit. Load and fire about two to six rounds. Clean the barrel throughly after each shot. . You shoud notice as you run a patch throuh it it will get polished and smoother. That has always taken care of all my leading problems including the pure lead 357 Remington ammo in my Smith and Wesson model 19. This doesn't hurt the gun one bit. Use alox 235 bullet lube and your in business.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Bigger bullet, faster powder, softer alloy.
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greyling22
Member
When I get back in town I'll try several of the things mentioned here.
-some purchased .357 and .358 hard lubed bullets.
-some of my 124grn bullets sized to .357 and .357
-stick with hs-6 and w321
-size a few of my .360's down to .359 and see how they do.
I might even cast a few out of pure linotype just to completely rule out "to soft"
-some purchased .357 and .358 hard lubed bullets.
-some of my 124grn bullets sized to .357 and .357
-stick with hs-6 and w321
-size a few of my .360's down to .359 and see how they do.
I might even cast a few out of pure linotype just to completely rule out "to soft"
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greyling22
Member
ok, I haven't had a chance to do much casting, or tinkering yet, but I did re-slug my barrel, and it came out .355. (.349 when the calipers were both in the grooves.)
Finally I pulled one of my bullets and measured it. .357 at the base, .354 in the lube ring area, and .358 up at the bottom of the cone. I pulled a second one, and it measured similarly, but it wasn't perfectly round. It was a little larger by about 2 thousandths in one direction than the other. (molds not lightly closed I guess)
I also shot some of my 14 bhn ingot (before casting and water quenching) reloads in a springlield xd, and it leaded badly as well, so I'm thinking it's the load, not the gun. (3.4grn win 231 950 fps, give or take) col: 1.089"
Pics of the pulled bullet, the slug, and a loaded round included.
Finally I pulled one of my bullets and measured it. .357 at the base, .354 in the lube ring area, and .358 up at the bottom of the cone. I pulled a second one, and it measured similarly, but it wasn't perfectly round. It was a little larger by about 2 thousandths in one direction than the other. (molds not lightly closed I guess)
I also shot some of my 14 bhn ingot (before casting and water quenching) reloads in a springlield xd, and it leaded badly as well, so I'm thinking it's the load, not the gun. (3.4grn win 231 950 fps, give or take) col: 1.089"
Pics of the pulled bullet, the slug, and a loaded round included.
Attachments
calipers are not accurate for barrel grove measurements. even so, most 9mm barrels will be .355, or .356 inches for groove diameter. your .358" bullet is way too big for your barrel. get a bullet sized to .355 or .356 inches and try again.
murf
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dragon813gt
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If the barrel measures .356 then a .358 bullet is not to big as long it chambers. Now if it's .355 it might be to big. You want at least .001 over bore diameter. Sizing to bore diameter is going to lead to leading.
Are you sizing them? You should not have the much variation in size. If that's how they're coming out of the mold then it's bad. Personally I hate the TL molds. I tumble lube but I use a regular lube groove mold.
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Are you sizing them? You should not have the much variation in size. If that's how they're coming out of the mold then it's bad. Personally I hate the TL molds. I tumble lube but I use a regular lube groove mold.
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Yarddog
Member
As stated, run thruogh sizer & fire lap Should help alot. Out of round will keyhole. All good info. Let us know how you are progressing ; ) PS Best of luck, My Lee 356-124 drops them at 360. I size with 358 Lee sizer for all my 9s & a few 357 mags.
Y/D
Y/D
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greyling22
Member
918v, I don't know how big it is, but i'ts pretty decent sized. When I loaded it with some .359/.360 257 bullets they still chambered most of the time. the xd had a tighter chamber.
Yarddog, you think size them to .357? .358? I'll try most anything at this point.
Yarddog, you think size them to .357? .358? I'll try most anything at this point.
Yarddog
Member
Yes, Have you Sized them at all ? They might be out of round. As far as the FPS is not all that fast for a 124gr. Is the mold a TL124356 ? Curious as thats what I shoot. both in 356 & 358 & both cast em bigger. Lee sizers are
or was $15.99. Not Bad ; )
Y/D
or was $15.99. Not Bad ; )
Y/D
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greyling22
Member
anything bigger than .358 starts to have chambering difficulties.
I've got sizers, but if I can avoid using them I do so. lazy that way I guess.
Casting soft caused more leading and a lot of keyholing. as did jacking up velocities in an attempt to ensure obduration.
Yes, it is a tl124356 mold.
I've got sizers, but if I can avoid using them I do so. lazy that way I guess.
Casting soft caused more leading and a lot of keyholing. as did jacking up velocities in an attempt to ensure obduration.
Yes, it is a tl124356 mold.
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greyling22
Member
I found a local commercial caster and decided to give his bullets a try. I tried a sampling of his stuff sized to .357 (110, 115, 125, and 147 grn) http://www.mastercraftbullets.com/semiauto.html
I loaded with start loads of WSF from the hogdon website. They worked pretty well. Tighter groups, no keyholing, and significantly reduced leading. My gun has shallow rifling, so I thought the extra bearing surface of the 147's might help the bullet grab the rifling better, but I didn't notice any leading difference between the tested bullets.
So I am encouraged. I have made some forward progress! I guess I should try some .358 sized bullets and see if I can get the last of the leading to go away? And I could reduce the loads a little below starting to see if I can reduce pressures.
I loaded with start loads of WSF from the hogdon website. They worked pretty well. Tighter groups, no keyholing, and significantly reduced leading. My gun has shallow rifling, so I thought the extra bearing surface of the 147's might help the bullet grab the rifling better, but I didn't notice any leading difference between the tested bullets.
So I am encouraged. I have made some forward progress! I guess I should try some .358 sized bullets and see if I can get the last of the leading to go away? And I could reduce the loads a little below starting to see if I can reduce pressures.
Take one of your bullets. Put it on something hard. Smack the nose with a hammer. That will bump the bullet up in diameter. Load it into a case. Try to chamber it. It most likely won't. So pound it into the chamber. Then knock it out with a rod. Measure the imprint of the freebore and get back to us.
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greyling22
Member
I've got some 357 bullets that drop .361, I can load one of those into a case (I guess load it long? do I crimp?) and then drive it into the barrel. just like the picture? deeper? shallower? how far in do I drive it? where am I measuring once it's been popped back out?
for me, bullet size is normally .001 to .003" OVER bore size, depending on the gun. and go soft on the bullet rather than hard if you are getting leading in the bore, especially true on pistols. the soft lead will deform to fill any gaps easier, hard cast will not deform especially with lower psi pistol rounds. the L.L.A. is good enough lube for pistols. not so much on higher speed rifle bullets though.
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