38/357 load data disparity

[length_of_pull_1]

I am new to reloading .38 spl/ .357 magnum and am wondering why there is such a huge gap between between 38 spl up to 20,000 psi and 357 magnum up to 35,000 psi? Is 38-44 data meant to bridge this gap? Why wouldn't we want to load 38 cases to that higher pressure level? We know we have firearms that can tolerate that pressure so why isn't it commonplace to do so? I understand that lightly loaded 357 cases sort of pick up where 38 plus p leaves off velocity wise, but what if I only have special brass or have a gun with special chambers (assuming modern metallurgy allows the same sort of pressure tolerances regardless of cylinder length). I'm probably not going to try to blow my face off, but I am curious enough for some experimentation. I am unfamiliar with pressure signs in 38 brass so I have yet to up much hotter than published plus p data.

 

[Docendo Discimus]

Safety first. Use 38 data in 38 brass and .357 data for .357.
There are old reloaders and there are bold reloaders........

 

[length_of_pull_1]

I'm new to this caliber but not hand loading in general, so I do understand the value of published load data and why you wouldn't use the data from a larger case volume in a smaller one. It just seems to me the full potential of 38 spl is not being widely realized.

 

[bcook4321]

Agree with above. Better to soft load 357 cases than hot load 38. Imagine you, a relative, friend etc. put your juiced up 38s in a… 38 revolver. Not good. Whereas 357 won’t fit in the n those chambers.
You won’t find too much published data for those in between 357s, but you can extrapolate off 38 data accounting for extra case volume.

 

[Riomouse911]

There is a ton written on the .38 Spl. that explains its evolution from a black powder to smokeless powder cartridge. Older smokeless powder guns were designed with a performance and pressure max for the .38 Spl. based on the norms at that time. Here is one mentioned in another .38 Spl. post this week:

https://revolverguy.com/

Many decades ago S&W realized a .38 Spl. chambering in a .44 Spl sized gun could let the .38 be souped up safely, so the .38/44 rounds were developed and marketed for their Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman revolvers. These were not recommended to use in regular .38 Spl guns, but since the cartridges looked the same nothing other than the headstamps would let inattentive shooters know they had a .38/44 round in their hand.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/the-sw-heavy-duty-revolver-and-its-38-44-cartridge/139175

By lengthening the .38 Spl. case to 1.29 (+\-) the much higher pressure .357 Magnum cartridges can’t be chambered in properly dimensioned .38 revolvers. Putting a .357 magnum load into an old .38 revolver could make for a catastrophic failure of the gun and certain injury to the shooter.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-history-of-the-357-magnum/

Yes, one may soup up .38 Spl. loads to exceed published maximums, and many of these loads are safe to shoot in a .357 handgun or even older .38/44 guns. But prudence dictates that reloaders stick to loads that are set for the cartridge being loaded, in case one of the over-max loads is loaded into a gun not designed to handle it.

Me, I load scads of .38 and .357 rounds every year. I keep my .38 loads in the target range (2.8 gr Bullseye under a DEWC loads) to +P range. The +P loads are made with other powders and bullets better suited for upper range velocity.

My .357 loads I do not make powder puff rounds. (I have .38 Spl. for those.) I keep my magnums in mid range (6.2 gr Unique under 158 gr SWC) to a few upper end loads with JHP bullets propelled by H-110 or Enforcer powders.

Since changing my loading set up from .38 to .357 often involves just the adjustment of the belling and seating/crimping dies, and adjusting/confirming the powder charge, I find there is no reason to hot rod a .38 Spl. Other reloaders do push or maybe exceed limits, since they’re shooting their own guns and taking their own risks that’s fine by me.

Stay safe.

 

[Hartkopf]

I’m not really understanding what the OP is trying to accomplish. 38 Special revolvers have some safety margin but not 357 Magnum margin. Or do you want to load something over 38 Special +p? Without pressure testing, it’s a shot in the dark. You could possibly load a combination that causes pressure spikes, even if it doesn’t seem like much more powder than what’s published.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm new to this caliber but not hand loading in general, so I do understand the value of published load data and why you wouldn't use the data from a larger case volume in a smaller one. It just seems to me the full potential of 38 spl is not being widely realized.

The full potential of the .38Spl was realized with the release of the .357Mag.

 

[Stumper]

It has been answered but one more time....Yes, you absolutely CAN load the 38 spl to higher performance. You SHOULD NOT because of the possibility of such loads being chambered in guns not suitable for the increased pressures. There was never a need for the longer case of the .357 to get to it's performance level. The purpose of the longer case in both the 357 and 44magnums was to prevent chambering in guns designed and tested for much lower pressures.

 

[Walkalong]

What you want to do is answered by the .357 Mag, so accept the .38 Spl for what it is. There are too many old .38 Spl guns that can't handle the pressure at .357 levels, and way too many cool .357 revolvers not to get a couple and enjoy the next power level.

By the time you "see" pressure signs in .38 Spl cases, you are waaay over pressure.

 

[Walkalong]

I'm new to this caliber but not hand loading in general, so I do understand the value of published load data and why you wouldn't use the data from a larger case volume in a smaller one. It just seems to me the full potential of 38 spl is not being widely realized.

We understand it, but we accept what is, and that is that it is unsafe, especially for new reloaders.

I'm probably not going to try to blow my face off, but I am curious enough for some experimentation. I am unfamiliar with pressure signs in 38 brass so I have yet to up much hotter than published plus p data

This is poor reloading practice, do you really realize the value of tested data?

S&W Model 28. One of the answers to your prayers. There are many fine options.

 

[lordpaxman]

I'm new to this caliber but not hand loading in general, so I do understand the value of published load data and why you wouldn't use the data from a larger case volume in a smaller one.

Unless you can measure pressure, seems like you already know the correct answer. Be safe, and, good luck.

 

[buck460XVR]

Why wouldn't we want to load 38 cases to that higher pressure level? We know we have firearms that can tolerate that pressure so why isn't it commonplace to do so? I understand that lightly loaded 357 cases sort of pick up where 38 plus p leaves off velocity wise, but what if I only have special brass or have a gun with special chambers (assuming modern metallurgy allows the same sort of pressure tolerances regardless of cylinder length). I'm probably not going to try to blow my face off, but I am curious enough for some experimentation. I am unfamiliar with pressure signs in 38 brass so I have yet to up much hotter than published plus p data.

You are assuming an awful lot. It's not the brass or the caliber, but the gun that the brass/caliber is chambered for, that is the weak link. .45 Colt is a good example. While there are some guns that are chambered for it that can handle the increased pressure of the "Ruger Only" loads, there are a myriad that aren't....and many of those are Rugers.

 

[wcwhitey]

As was mentioned earlier in .38 Special once signs of over pressure start showing up you are usually way past the pressure limits. If power, blast, noise and recoil are what you are after stick to .357 cases. If fun, mild recoil and accuracy, emphasis on accuracy is what your after stick to standard pressure advertised loads. No point risking a gun many decades old that just cannot be replaced (they just don’t make them like they used to).

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

As was mentioned earlier in .38 Special once signs of over pressure start showing up you are usually way past the pressure limits. If power, blast, noise and recoil are what you are after stick to .357 cases. If fun, mild recoil and accuracy, emphasis on accuracy is what your after stick to standard pressure advertised loads. No point risking a gun many decades old that just cannot be replaced (they just don’t make them like they used to).

Point in fact, there are plenty of new, mass-produced guns in .38Spl that can't handle +P or +P+ let alone a steady diet of proofing loads. Not many guns can survive a steady diet of proofing loads. Some guns don't survive proofing.

This is a catastrophe looking for a place to happen with a ready excuse of, "...but it seemed like a good idea," already in the works.

 

[Highland Lofts]

I have seen revolvers that were over stressed and failed. Some resulted in injury on both sides of the spectrum from under charged which resulted in a squib and then another shot afterwards to over charged and damages resulted.

Stick to the manuals and pay attention to what is published for your safety and those around you.

 

[wcwhitey]

Point in fact, there are plenty of new, mass-produced guns in .38Spl that can't handle +P or +P+ let alone a steady diet of proofing loads. Not many guns can survive a steady diet of proofing loads. Some guns don't survive proofing.

This is a catastrophe looking for a place to happen with a ready excuse of, "...but it seemed like a good idea," already in the works.

Well said, what everyone is saying, "Don't Do It".

 

[Archie]

I think I understand the question: Is it possible to load .38 Special cases to .357 Magnum pressures and fire them in a .357 Magnum revolver?

The answer to that is both yes and no.

It would not be a good idea. One cannot load a .357 Magnum data load in .38 Special cases. The smaller volume of the .38 Special case results in an over pressure loading that is likely above the limits for .357 Magnum. To do so prudently requires being able to test the pressure levels. Most of us don't have that sort of equipment.

The other possibility is to load a .38 Special to .357 Magnum pressure levels and shoot them in a normal .38 Special revolver. No, the revolver would not hold up to such.

 

[AJC1]

I shoot a ton of 20,000 psi loads but that's in a 357. In a modern feather weight revolver I cant immagine it being any fun. I like to equate more powder to more nitrous in a motor. It may be fun and exciting, are you willing to suffer the consequences. No one expects disaster but its always just right around the corner.

 

[mdi]

FWIW and my experience not recommended; I have loaded 38 Special brass with 357 Magnum data, and I did not go above abut mid-level 357 158 gr SWC data. I fired these in a 357 Magnum revolver (but at the time I probably had been reloading over 25 years). I would never try this in a 38 Special revolver, but I marked the cases and the lable on the bag with red marker so I wouldn't accidently put these in my 38. Preceeding this I had sectioned a 38 case and a 357 case and measured the web, case head and walls. the two were close enough to figger there was only a length difference. No pressure signs on fired brass. A lot of effort but it was a "jes wanna know" experiment. Today, I load 38 Special data in 38 Special brass (not +P) and 357 in 357 brass, much easier to keep track...

 

[mjsdwash]

I have loaded full power 357 into .38 cases. Blew a few case heads. I did this to get an extra round into a Marlin 94 in grizzly areas. Cases did last a few firings.

The big risk is that case volume is lower, so you need to reduce loads anyway, and lots of people loose track of their loads.

I have seen a few scummy types end up with very old antique .38's, usually stolen from a grandparent. These are the type of people who will also steel ammo from any opportunity. I don't know how many 37,000 psi loads a 1920's Police Positive can take, but I bet its not a lot.
I have had a few friends inherit old weak guns, and they don't care what goes in them. On shooting trips, I have found people tend to think ammo is communal, and I stopped putting hot 38's in my box because of that.

Anyway, a typical .38 runs a 158grain at around 800-900 fps. +P will get that 900-950, and FULL power .357 will run around 1400 fps. Most target grad .357 will still take it to 1200. So its not all that close.
That said,

 

[mcb]

The pressure limitation on 38 Special is due to the guns designed for the cartridge not the cartridge itself. If you're shooting a 38 Special in a gun designed for 357 Magnum you could in theory load it safely to 357 Magnum pressures. Most frown on this practice due to the potential for that high-pressure 38 Special cartridge inadvertently getting put in a 38 Special firearm that can't handle the higher than designed pressure. This is one reason why 357 Magnum is longer than 38 Special so the higher pressure 357 Magnum case will not chamber in the 38 Special chamber.

This was a major issue with 38/44 cartridge as it would chamber in 38 Special revolvers that could not handle the pressures of the 38/44 cartridge. 38/44 was also one of the reasons for the rise of SAAMI as a regulatory group within the firearms industry, it was that or the government was going to do it, so SAAMI became more important rather than let the government do it.

That said if you are willing to be sure your 38 Special does not get into the wrong revolver you could loaded it to 357 Magnum pressure levels. For example many USPSA revolver shooters load 38 Short Colt to near 357 Magnum pressures for competition. That ammo would damage, if not destroy an original C&B conversion revolver the 38 Short Colt cartridge was original designed for but in a 357 Magnum this high pressure 38 Short Colt work just fine.

The 38 Short Colt shown here for my 627 is pushing a 160 gr bullet to ~875 fps. From Quickloads this load is estimated to be ~ 29,000 psi. Well above anything 38 Short Colt or even 38 Special was designed to handle but in my 357 Magnum is works well. Not something you should do without careful consideration and careful implementation.

-rambling

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The pressure limitation on 38 Special is due to the guns designed for the cartridge not the cartridge itself. If you're shooting a 38 Special in a gun designed for 357 Magnum you could in theory load it safely to 357 Magnum pressures. Most frown on this practice due to the potential for that high-pressure 38 Special cartridge inadvertently getting put in a 38 Special firearm that can't handle the higher than designed pressure. This is one reason why 357 Magnum is longer than 38 Special so the higher pressure 357 Magnum case will not chamber in the 38 Special chamber.

This was a major issue with 38/44 cartridge as it would chamber in 38 Special revolvers that could not handle the pressures of the 38/44 cartridge. 38/44 was also one of the reasons for the rise of SAAMI as a regulatory group within the firearms industry, it was that or the government was going to do it, so SAAMI became more important rather than let the government do it.

That said if you are willing to be sure your 38 Special does not get into the wrong revolver you could loaded it to 357 Magnum pressure levels. For example many USPSA revolver shooters load 38 Short Colt to near 357 Magnum pressures for competition. That ammo would damage, if not destroy an original C&B conversion revolver the 38 Short Colt cartridge was original designed for but in a 357 Magnum this high pressure 38 Short Colt work just fine.

The 38 Short Colt shown here for my 627 is pushing a 160 gr bullet to ~875 fps. From Quickloads this load is estimated to be ~ 29,000 psi. Well above anything 38 Short Colt or even 38 Special was designed to handle but in my 357 Magnum is works well. Not something you should do without careful consideration and careful implementation.

-rambling

If I recall, isn't it the case that you can trim a .357Maximum all the way down to a .38SC and it will be dimensionally correct for that specification?

 

[mcb]

If I recall, isn't it the case that you can trim a .357Maximum all the way down to a .38SC and it will be dimensionally correct for that specification?

Yes, externally modern, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38 Special (+P), 357 Magnum, and 357 Maximum are all identical except for overall case length. Most manufactures make the web of the case a little thicker and longer as the cases get longer but I have some 38 Special that has a web nearly the same length as 357 Magnum some that is noticeable shorter. I suspect if you took new 357 Magnum or 357 Maximum cases and cut them down to 38 Short Colt it would take some minor internal reaming to be able to properly seat most bullets.

 

[.38 Special]

If I am reading the OP correctly, we maybe are being too harsh on him. If the basic question is "Why isn't the .38 loaded to the same pressure as the .357?" it doesn't actually strike me as an unreasonable one. Frankly, in a modern large frame .38, it's just fine to load the .38 to .357 pressures. The trouble, as has been mentioned, is that a lot of .38 revolvers are not up to such pressures, simply because they are too old, too small, or both. Imagine buying a box of factory .38 Specials loaded to 35,000 psi and firing them through a 100 year old top break.

I personally have loaded and used .38 Specials at .357 Magnum pressures without issue. Searching online for Skeeter Skelton's old article entitled "My friend, the .357" will reveal the "secrets", and as always, neither me, THR, or Skeeter's corpse take any responsibility for the results. I personally discontinued the practice as I have plenty of old .38 revolvers laying around and don't want to accidentally turn one into a grenade.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The trouble, as has been mentioned, is that a lot of .38 revolvers are not up to such pressures, simply because they are too old, too small, or both. Imagine buying a box of factory .38 Specials loaded to 35,000 psi and firing them through a 100 year old top break.

How many short magnum .38's are you willing to put through this?


As designed and built, the RIA M200 is a fine little revolver for the person who wants a good mid-caliber revolver. It can handle standard pressure loads up to and past the typical commercial loadings for target, plinking, self-defense and any other duty a medium-frame .38 might be called on to do (any proofed gun can). "Typical" excludes things like the Buffalo Bore very heavy loads - they're commercial but exclusive to the vendor.

What we're all trying very politely to tell the OP (who seems to have vanished, BTW) is, it's not just a matter of old designs or poor metallurgy, it's a matter of how much pressure a machine can withstand delivered to single point of failure? Exceeding the design specifications is not good planning and the reason we have the .357Magnum was to realize the full potential of the .38Spl. Cramming in more powder isn't an improvement. More power (grunt! grunt! grunt!) is NOT a worthy goal.