38/44 Revolvers

[cxm]

From about 1929 into the 1960s S&W made revolvers chambered for the 38/44 version of the 38 Spl. For some years, Colt's also chambered their New Service and Shooting Master for this round.

I have been doing some research on these rounds, including chronographing some old ammo I have found in order to develop loads that duplicate the old cartridges.

The 38/44 was of courxe the precursor of .357 Mag, and is stated to have been developed as an answer to the pentration ability of the .38 Super from Colts.

I have several questions and I hope someone will have some informaton available.

1. Does anyone know of actual use of these rounds against BGs?
2. If yes, how did they perform? One shot stop? etc.
3. What was your fav. load in the 38/44 cartridge.
4. What revovler did you use them in?

The ammo was made by Remington, Peters, U.S. Cartridge Co. Winchester, CIL/Dominion and perhaps more. I hvae had a report of a Federal load, but can not confirm it (though it seems reasonable.

Any information would be appreciated.

V/r

Chuck

 

[uglygun]

I had an old Shooting Times magazine that had data to closely approximate the loads, seemed like 2400 at around 10 grains for 158grn bullets but I don't remember for sure.


I'll look around for the magazine if I still have it. I had an old reloading manual as well that had some loads listed but don't know where it went and I've looked hard for it.

 

[cxm]

Load Info

Thanks very much... I'd appreciate the published info if it is not too much trouble.

So far I have identified quite a few factory loading for the 38/44. The most common is 158 gr. though that load came in at least two versions, a round nose and a flat point, both lead.

There were also lead, jacketed point versions in 130 gr., 158 gr. and 200 gr. intended to pentrate cars and vests.

There was also a 200 gr. Highway Patrol load.

In the case of Remington at least, the earliest 38/44 was loaded with DuPont #8 pistol powder. I believe #8 was in a general way somewhat similar to 2400 in performance, being rather slow burning.

Both Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton developed heavy loads that approximate the 38/44 load. Now that I have measured the actual velocity of this round, it should not be very hard to work up some duplicate loads... the problem however, is there is no way to duplicate some of the early bullet designs... but I guess you can't have everything... just have to use what is available.

Thanks again.

V/r

Chuck

 

[Wil Terry]

AS YOU HAVE NOTED THE 38/44 IS A HEAVY LOADED 38SPECIAL.

In order of your questions:
1. Yes
2. Fine
3. 13.5GR of 2400 with 158gr bullets
4.M21 6 1/2" SMITH&WESSON

 

[444]

Check out the October 2003 (#225) issue of Handloader magazine.
It has an article entitled Yesterday's .38 S&W Special" by Gil Sengel.
It discusses all kinds of various loads from the early days of the .38 Special: Black Powder loads, Gallary Loads, ..................... it of course includes loading data, performance data, what bullet moulds to buy to cast your own bullets to duplicate these orginal factory bullets etc.

 

[Gordon]

When I first got a chrono in early 80's I had some .38spl Hi-velocity loads marked for use in .44frames, I think it was green and white Rem 'hi-way master' which had a 158 jacketed conical spire pointed bullet obviously for metal penetration. These things went just under 1000fps out of 6" bbl. as I remember. That would put them in high .38spl +power range.Nothing magic here. Remember early mid and (G-d forbid) light frame .38spl were not proofed for +power loads until recently (30 years or less). Now the old 44-40 & 32-20 CARBINE loads were MUCH hotter than the pistol loads , and one or two of those took apart many early revolvers!

 

[Johnny Guest]

"Thank the lawyers."

I kinda believe Saxon Pig summed it up quite well.

I saw at least one old box of the Remington High Speed ammo which was clearly marked, "For Use in Smith & Wesson and Colt Heavy Frame Revolvers." I don't clearly recall if it specified ONLY those. Anyway, that loading and those marked .38/.44 originated in the days before the .357 mag was introduced. I imagine the ammo manufacturers supposed that the use of powerful handguns was the province of thinking adults, and gave the purchasers and users credit for some judgement.

Only last night, I was searching for loads for an obsolete cartridge (.351 WSL, if it matters) and looked in my oldest loading manual. It was a Lyman, with copyright date of, I think, 1964. There were some .38 Special loads in that edition which approached 1100 fps, if memory serves. I hesitate to even quote them, they were so far above what is currently considered maximum.

Best,
Johnny

 

[444]

"My Speer manual #8 (1970) has a 158 lead over 9.0 grains of SR4756 at 1,250 FPS."

 

[cxm]

38/44 markings

Curiously enough, some boxes were marked, but the only case I have seen with markings is (in pictures) is the WRA Super .38 Special and a Federal case that says .38 Spl HV and the box is marked High velocity...unfortunately, I have not been able to do any testing on the Federal load or the Winchester either. Will keep looking for more old ammo.

If any comes across any of this ammo, I would very much appreciate it they would tell me where they found it... perhaps I can buy it for testing.

Thanks

V/r

Chuck