.38 Military & Police Model of 1905 - ( 4th change )

[Oyeboten]

Hi Garman5,



A Two Inch Barrel 'M&P' from 1916 would be exceedingly rare.


I imagine they existed as a special Order thing, but, I have not found any proof that any exist as Factory Originals, prior to the mid 1930s.



Possibly Radagast could comment on when the earliest known M&P Snubbys made their official debut as a Catalogued offering, or, if they existed as a special Oder thing form the beginning?


Since yours does not have a matching Serial Number on the flat underside of the Barrel, we would have to assume it was most likely re-Barreled at some later date, possibly by Smith & Wesson, or, someone else.


Obtaining a 'Letter' would solve the mystery, since it would state the Barrel Length it was shipped with originally.



I like those Stocks...they look like Amber.


I would not mind finding some like that in fact.


What if any Nomenclature or text is on the Barrel? And, could you post some close up images of it?



The quality of the Nickle job looks very good, so, who ever did it, was very well versed in quality Work...and, it may have been S&W who did the refinish and the possible rebarrel.

 

[Radagast]

Garman5:
I suggest you go to www.thefiringline.com and search posts by member Hammer IT.
Or use google image search for his name and Fords or S&W.
He has had several old and battered S&Ws restored by Fords to factory new condition and has posted before and after pics. IIRC they can even restore poorly polished roll marks.
Be aware that purist collectors will have a hissy fit about restoring a historical gun, normally I would be opposed too, but a gun with family history has a different value to me than a gun with broad historic value - restoring it is the same as looking after any family asset that I hope will be appreciated by future generations.

Oyeboten:
The 2 inch barrel was first offered with the 4th Change variant. I read Garman5's post as the barrel serial number matches the frame. If I am correct that makes his gun one of the first, if not the first factory K frame snub. If not the first, it's probably the earliest surviving K frame snub.

In the last year we've had the 5th production .44 Magnum turn up in the date of birth thread, a couple of 1st model triple locks that were doing duty as night stand guns and of course your immaculate snubby. I don't think it improbable that the very first K frame snubby would appear on The High Road.

 

[Old Fuff]

Concerning Smith & Wesson's .38 Military & Police revolvers with "pencil" style barrels.

All of these barrels were made from forgings, with the front sight being part of the forging. Each length of barrel was made from it's own forging, and unlike Colt's or some other makes, a longer barrel wasn't cut down to make a shorter one and the front sight relocated at the factory, although it often happened outside of the company. Also when it came to the 2-inch length the underlug at the front was part of the forging, and it - as well as the front sight had to be different then forgings for other lengths of barrels. So during most the 1905 Hand Ejector, 4th Chg. era the standard, and only lengths offered by the factory were 4, 5, and 6 inches.

The 2" length for obvious reasons required its own forging, and these were first ordered during early 1933. Production started in July 1933.

Without specific forging dies, it is highly improbable that any factory produced .38 M&P revolvers with 2" barrels were made before the July, 1933 date. However it is highly probable that the factory and others converted older guns by installing new barrels and necessary ejector rod and center pin components. It should also be noted that unlike other barrel lengths, the 2" ones were stamped on the left side using very small letters in 2 lines, "Smith & Wesson / .38 S&W Spec. Ctg." This will quickly seperate the genuine 2" barrels from a cut-down longer length.

 

[Garman5]

Oyeboten, I got some close-ups of the gun for you...let me know if you need more and of what. I cropped out the last two of the serial which I assume is wise...right?

The second photo is to show the "P" stamp in front of the serial under the barrel. I know it is supposed to be a "B" to denote an original barrel.

 

[Garman5]

Two more photos of the butt of the gun to show the "star" stamped along with the serial number, which I had to crop out for obvious reasons. The second obviously shows the other part of the serial minus the last two digits.

It just occurred to me that I could have put all four in the same post...thought you could only attach two pics to each post maximum.

Gary

 

[Jim Watson]

I am not a student of such things, but I see that the barrel markings are not sawn through as they are on shortened guns; and the latch lug is in place and the extractor rod is the short type. It may not be original from 1916 manufacture, but I bet it is still an all-S&W product.

Except for the grips, that is. They sure look like the Catalin polymer that first got noticed when somebody researched John Wayne's SAA prop gun; right down to the finger grooves.

I think the very neat REL RUFFNER marking adds something to the character of the gun. Whoever ol' RR might have been.

 

[Old Fuff]

I wouldn't contest Roy Jink's opinion that the revolver was made in or around 1916, which is way before the company was making 2" barrels. The star on the butt indicates a factory rework or refinishing (maybe both) and I think that happened after 1933 and the introduction of the snubby length.

The revolver might have been refinished at the same time, but if the hammer and trigger are nickel plated the refinishing was likely done by someone else.

Unfortunately S&W no longer has records concerning reworked or refinished revolvers, so we must resort to speculation. If you had the revolver lettered (at a cost of $50.00) it would tell you what the original barrel length and finish were, along with the shipping date and what distributor or dealer got it. On very rare occasions an individual may be mentioned.

There is a slight chance the barrel work was done by an outside gunsmith, but I doubt it because of the gun's serial number stamped on the barrel, combined with the star on the butt.

You have a lot of interesting history there.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hard to tell in the lighting of the pictures, but I don't think the hammer is plated. Too much glare off the trigger to be sure.

 

[Garman5]

Neither the hammer or the trigger are plated and the pictures should hopefully show the same. I do intend on getting a letter for this gun and a late 50's/early 60's Model 19-3 I am picking up Monday; that I just purchased (love that CA 10-day cooling off period!). That gun is so clean and barely used that I couldn't pass it up. Really want those two lettered since they are the oldest/most valuable guns in my collection. After I've gotten some more detail on the 1905, I will look at my options to decide what to do next.

I do agree with Jim that the "REL RUFFNER" on the gun does make it unique. Would love to know where that came from. Like I mentioned before, both my grandfather and father have passed away and with them a lot of knowledge and experience. I am third generation law enforcement, so this gun has some significant meaning to me, given the places it has surely been.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Garman5,



Well...my own conjecture, is that the Revolver began Life as some other Barrel length...later, in the 1930s maybe, was re-Barreled with a then 'new' option of the Factory correct 2 Inch Barrel and the appropriate Ejecter Rod for it, and, was either Nickel to begin with, was re-Nickled, or went from Blue to Nickel at that time.

It appears to me that the Nickel your Revolver has was and remains a first class Job, so, might have been fairly pristine factory Nickel to begin with which later got a factory Nickel 2 inch Barrel, where they then aged together or, at any rate, the Nickeling was done by the very best practioners of the day.


Personally, I really REALLY like your Revolver, and, if it was mine, I would never have it restored or refinished - to my taste, it is entirely 'perfect' and lovely just as it is, with it's honest delicate signs of age, time, and use.


Looks like it is very fine condition anyway.



Old Fuff's mention of the dedicated Drop Forging Dies for each Barrel Length S & W offered makes sense to me, and, even though some Historical over-views of the 'M&P' Revolver infer by lack of explicit admission, that a 2 Inch Barrel was offered fairly early on, or at the beginning of the 4th Change, this seems to be an inference in wording rather than a positive assertion.

My own inquiries so far have found that there does not seem to be any original configuration examples known to anyone I have asked, nor any literature known to them to affirm that any were made or offered, prior to the early 1930s, or, as Old Fuff clearifies, 1933 ( when, the we have to assume, the dedicated Dies and Forgings made with them, for the 2 Inch Barrel option had to have existed, and had been in place long enough to have produced those Barrels and for those Barrels, or some of them anyway, to have been Machined and finished ).


I will be attending the Wallace Beinfeld Antiquarian Arms Show soon, here in Las Vegas ( aka, the old 'Sahars Gun Show' ).

And, I hope to find and converse with a few S & W Collectors or dealers who may be able to shed further light on this ( Hisdtory of the 'M&P' 2 Inch variation ) question, if there is any more light to be shed on to it, and, there might be.


I kind of hope that the 2 Inch Barrel was in fact an offering or a special Order non Catalogued possibility in 1916, and that S & W had actually made the Drop Forging Dies by then, to do so, and, that it was not untill 1933 that the option became formally Catalogued as an offering....but, this would be a little improbable, especially holding back an offering of a Model which would have been receiving acclaim and at least some popularity for decades already, had it been offered at the get-go of the 4th Change...so...hmmm...

 

[Old Fuff]

I will be attending the Wallace Beinfeld Antiquarian Arms Show soon, here in Las Vegas ( aka, the old 'Sahars Gun Show' ).

Hopefully you will find two leading Smith & Wesson authorities in attendance, Roy Jinks and Jim Supica. Both tend to be easily approachable.

Smith & Wesson didn’t show much interest in .38 revolvers with barrel lengths shorter then 3 ¼ inches (all top-breaks exclusively) until 1927 when Colt introduced their Detective Special, which was simply a Police Positive Special with a 2-inch barrel. It quickly became a hit seller. Then in 1928 the U.S. Postal Service, with the Army acting as its agent, purchased some 1500 Colt Banker Specials (these were ordinary Police Positive’s, chambered in .38 S&W/Colt New Police, with 2-inch barrels). Smith & Wesson placed a bid, but lost. Continued Post Office interest pushed S&W over the edge, and they brought forth snubby barrels for both their I-frame (1936) and K-frame (1933) revolvers.

 

[Radagast]

Old Fuff:
Thanks for the history lesson.

Garman5:
Your last set of photos show a much better quality of finish than I expected, I'll leave it to you as to wether you wish to have it restored.
My guess is the factory rework star is for the rebarrel and a nickel finish. The new barrel would have been a new blank, hence the matching serial number.
FWIW Old Fuff is our resident firearms examiner and all round gun sage. If he says something is so then it usually is.

 

[Jim Watson]

Interesting Google
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00917FB3D5B12718DDDAE0A94DF405B888EF1D3

In 1928 the largest life insurance payout was $2,159,000 on the life of Robert E.L. Ruffner of Charleston, W. Va.

 

[Garman5]

Interesting Google
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00917FB3D5B12718DDDAE0A94DF405B888EF1D3

In 1928 the largest life insurance payout was $2,159,000 on the life of Robert E.L. Ruffner of Charleston, W. Va.

Funny, you should mention that because my grandfather was a Captain with the Charleston, WV Police. This story is starting to come together, but I think there is more and now I am intrigued to learn more. I have some family still back in WV who might have some info on the gun or this whole story.

 

[Radagast]

Fasacinating. Please keep us informed as you learn more.

 

[Old Fuff]

Given the circumstances, it might be a good move to get the gun lettered by Smith & Wesson to see if there is any conection between them and where the gun went when it was shipped. It's a long shot, but it might have been a dealer or distributor in Charleston.

Information concerning historical letters of authentication from Smith & Wesson’s historian, Roy G. Jinks can be obtained from the link listed below.

In exchange for a $50.00 research fee (make any check out to Smith & Wesson, not Mr. Jinks) he will search through the company’s original records until he finds your particular revolver. He will then send you an official letter which usually includes:

A short history of the revolver model’s background.

What the barrel length, caliber/cartridge, finish and stocks were, as well as the exact date it was shipped from the factory – and to what distributor, dealer or individual – as whatever the case may be.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...catalogId=10001&content=25301&sectionId=10504

 

[Garman5]

Fasacinating. Please keep us informed as you learn more.

Apparently, the Ruffner Family was very well known in that area, so the story is that much more interesting. There may have even been a link to Robert E. Lee and the Ruffner Family. There was also a connection to Booker T. Washington, who was apparently a garden helper for the family...interesting! I will keep you all informed as to my progress with the family history and the gun's history. Thank you all for being a "wealth" of knowledge and helping a guy piece together some family history.

 

[Garman5]

Given the circumstances, it might be a good move to get the gun lettered by Smith & Wesson to see if there is any conection between them and where the gun went when it was shipped. It's a long shot, but it might have been a dealer or distributor in Charleston.

I already have the form on hand to send away to Roy Jinks. I am waiting to pick up an older Model 19-3 that I just purchased, so I'll get that one lettered too.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hopefully you will find two leading Smith & Wesson authorities in attendance, Roy Jinks and Jim Supica. Both tend to be easily approachable.

I will seek them out!


I am sure I have met them in passing, casually, in times passed...but I was not into the learning curve I am now to have thought to put any fast and succinct questions to them.


Olf Fuff, being as you are listed as residing in Arizona, have you attended the old 'Sahara Gun Show', or, it's continuation in other locations here in Las Vegas?


My Workshop is close enough to where I used to light a Cigarette, and, walk to the Sahara in time to stub it out on the sidewalk before walking in. even though of course in those days, everyone was smoking in the Show and everyone's Tables had Ash Trays.

Not now! Oye...eeeeesh...gotta walk down the hall and go outside for a Breather if one wants one.


It was/is always such a charming array of old Guns of every sort, and other wonderful old items also, of course... intoxicating...just a wonderful Show. A lot to take in.


I used to exbitit my Work in it, at my Table, when I was making old Style Fitted and Presentation and Campaign Cases for various old Models of Revolvers and Automatics.

During that time ( I was always too poor then, to hardly ever buy anything, but ) I made many friends there who recognise me, and me them, when I attend as an attendee now a days.


Mr. Beinfeld was always very gracious and friendly to me, and he ran - and still runs - a First Class show.

Smith & Wesson didn’t show much interest in .38 revolvers with barrel lengths shorter then 3 ¼ inches (all top-breaks exclusively) until 1927 when Colt introduced their Detective Special, which was simply a Police Positive Special with a 2-inch barrel.

Indeed.


How odd it took either of them so long to get off the Dime on that matter, and, to offer mid frame or smaller Hand Ejecting Revolvers with 2 Inch Barrels.

They ought to have also offered the option in their Large Frame Models, of course.


Seems obvious to me ( if with the advantage of retrospect, maybe, ) that it would have been positively received, and rewarded enough by the Marketplace, had they both started offering them in like 1902 or 1910 for that matter.

It quickly became a hit seller. Then in 1928 the U.S. Postal Service, with the Army acting as its agent, purchased some 1500 Colt Banker Specials (these were ordinary Police Positive’s, chambered in .38 S&W/Colt New Police, with 2-inch barrels). Smith & Wesson placed a bid, but lost. Continued Post Office interest pushed S&W over the edge, and they brought forth snubby barrels for both their I-frame (1936) and K-frame (1933) revolvers.

Now, as far as the Barrel Text one finds on the Round Sight Barrels of the older 'M&P' Revolvers, or, of the ones made prior to WWI especially, but, of any of them -


Are there ary variations you have seen, which could suggest age or period?


Seems like all the ( not many ) I have seen had the same Roll or Text.


Given the low numbers, relatively, of the 2 Inch Barrel K Frames, they may well have been using the same Roll Die through out, or, untill the late 'fourties or even into the 'fiftys I imagine....but, I don't know really what the Life-span of a Roll Die is to feel sure about that.

 

[Jim K]

I'll take Fuff's word on when S&W introduced their 2" M&P, but I know they were very popular with plain clothes police from the 1930's through the 1950's, when the Chiefs Special became available. Even then the M&P held one more round, so many officers still preferred them. The only other choice in the S&W line was the Terrier, the short barrel version of the old Regulation Police, but it was in .38 S&W and the ammo was not compatible with the .38 Special, which was issue for most departments by the 1930's.

Jim

 

[Oyeboten]

Though S & W did offer a Two Inch Barrel version of the 'New Departure' in .38 S & W Ct'g., fairly early on, or by the latter 1890s anyway I think.

Far as that goes...


And, those were available New, up until 1940 or '41 thereabouts...or till whenever dealers stocks ran out anyway.


Those would have made a pretty nice little Back Up Gun anyway.

 

[Old Fuff]

The late 1890's Safety Hammerless with a 2" barrel was a small-frame .32, not the .38 version, where the shortest cataloged length remained 3 1/4 inches. The little .32 was advertised as a Bicycle Revolver.

Bicycles were becoming an increasingly popular form of transportation, but hostile dogs, as well as people were perceived (at least by S&W) as a threat, and a small revolver that was completely safe against accidental discharge, coupled with a barrel length that made it easily pocketable was the answer.

On special order, S&W would make up either the .32 or .38 Safety Hammerless with any barrel length running from 1 1/4 to 6 inches, and even the shortest length still had a fully functional ejector. Iver Johnson and Harrington & Richardson would do much the same.

Unlike the hand-ejector models, these top-breaks had a ribbed barrel, with the rib slotted at the front that would contain a separate blade that was pinned in place. Thus making custom lengths was easy.

I don't believe the short 2-inch length was added to the .38 as a cataloged option until the early or mid-1930's. That said, Roy Jinks told met that "They had made a lot of them," but they are seldom seen on the collector's market today. When they are they attract substantial prices compared to other lengths, with the possible exception of those that have 6 inch or longer lengths.

 

[Garman5]

The search continues for the origin of my grandfather's gun, but picked up a 19-3 tonight that I got from a buddy. If I could take a departure from the current topic, can anyone get me a manufacture year for it. Serial# K8494XX and I know it is Pinned and Recessed, which makes it more valuable according to my research. Thank you in advance for any information. I plan on getting this lettered along with the M&P 1905. Thanks guys! Pics to follow once I get back home to my digital camera.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Garman5,


Really, that Question would be best put to the Date-of-Birth Thread run by radagast, which you will find at the top of the Revolver section menu -


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=372213&page=110



Definmitely looking forward to your finding out more about the Nickel 'M&P' Snubby.


I sure like that Revolver.

 

[Garman5]

I appreciate that someone else is into this gun as well. I will keep this thread on course about the aforementioned revolver. Hope to have an update for you all soon.