.38 Snubby Service Weapon???

[SniperStraz]

From Combat Hanguns March 2007 Page 90

An officer responds to a call of somebody stealing a motor scooter. At the scene the officer attempts to talk with the thief who suddenly attacks him with a knife. The officer fires one round from his duty sidearm, a .38 Special Model 85 Taurus revolver with a 3-inch barrel, stopping his assailant.

I was recently reading a thread here on THR and many members were saying that .38 is actually less powerful than a 9x19mm. Now, remembering that most LEOs have switched over from 9mm to something more powerful, and that snubbies tend to lose quite a bit of their power due to the short barrel's and gap b/w the barrel and the chamber, I'm forced to use my deductive reasoning (and run-on sentences) to ask: *** is an LEO in 2007 doing with a Taurus 85 as his "duty sidearm?"

Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated. Maybe someone can explain how a lawman can feel safe with a snubbie.

 

[RexKwonDo]

I think there's a fair number of people who would be persuaded to comply with a police firing .38 specials out of a 3" revolver at them. Maybe I'm just a wuss, though.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Sounds like it worked for him...

 

[ranger53]

Well, I have helped many a pathologists during autopsies. I have a rossi 38 spl rated +p and I use 125 gr HP in it ( +p). That is my CCW. But, to get back to autopsies, you would be surprised what havoc the 38 spl will do to the human body! Sorry, but I'll take a wheel gun over anything else, but that is just me!
tommy

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

My guess would be that this didn't happen in the United States. Since it was a revolver and not a small-caliber auto, I doubt if it was in Europe either. That would leave present or former British Commonwealth countries, but probably not Canada, whose national police force, the RCMP, has always carried full-size, full-caliber revolvers and now pistols. (Local LE might carry small-frame revolvers.) Possibly Australia?

In any event, good shooting.

 

[Checkman]

It could have been in one of the South American nations.

 

[universal]

I was thinking South America too, or maybe it was a security officer. It does not say law enforcement or police, simply officer. Anyway, there are still police officers in the U.S. who carry .38 revolvers. I personally worked with a LT. who carried a S&W model 15 with a 6 inch barrel. Lat but not least, in my opinion a revolver with a 3 inch barrel is not a "snubby".

 

[jad0110]

Looking at the numbers on the 38 Special, it is easy to conclude that it is not "up to snuff" with other cartridges. And with the huge variety of 38 rounds available, that is certainly true for some, including shot shells and some of the lighter target wadcutter loads.

However, rounds like the Corbon DPX and the famed Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollowpoint have an excellent track record on the street. The Speer Gold Dots are a little too new to judge, but I imagine they'll rack up a good performance record too. Heck, even the NYPD used the lowly RNL with good effect.

The 38 Special is my favorite SD round, as with the right ammo it will do the job with proper shot placement, just like any other medium and large bore handgun round. Plus, recoil is light and follow up shots are sooooo easy!

Don't underestimate the 38! Cool story too.

 

[universal]

I am with you. Judging stickly by the numbers, the .38 appears less than impressive. However, it has a long history of getting the job done. It is slso my SD round of choice.

 

[Puncha]

I know for a fact that the Singapore Police Force issues the Taurus Model 85 .38 Special 3" barrelled revolver to all it's beat cops and police coast guard officers. This is usually backed up by a expandable nightstick. Each officer will carry 10rds of ammo, 5 in the gun and 5 in a speed strip carried on his/her duty belt.

 

[SaxonPig]

SniperStraz- You must be a young man with limited knowledge of the history of police sidearms.

The .38 Special revolver was THE standard duty weapon for most police officers for about 50 years or so. A well-aimed .38 Special slug will do the job most of the time and nothing is guaranteed to be 100% effective.

Most cops (especially big city cops) aren't into guns and don't shoot well. So they put four bullets into a subject (one in the forearm, one nicking the collar bone, one grazing an earlobe and one bouncing off the sidewalk and striking the shin) and report that the caliber failed to stop. So bigger calibers were introduced... and the missing began. Those cops who didn't shoot enough to get good at it with their .38s were all of sudden missing all over the place with the harder-kicking .357 and .41 Magnums. So then they went to the high capacity 9mm auto.

Why miss with only six when you can miss with 14?

I have two working self-defense pistols. These are the two guns I own that are purely tools. One is a 659 S&W that I carry in my truck. I want 14 shots without carrying a reload. Stainless for easy maintenance. The house gun is Model 64 with a 2" barrel. Stainless again and the snub can't be easily grabbed by someone trying to disarm me in the dark. Ammo is factory 125 JHP +P because while I consider +P rather mild, my wife has to shoot this gun and I don't want to overpower her ability to handle the recoil.

I don't sweat being armed with "only" a .38 Special revolver. I am confident that at SD ranges I can place my shots where they count and trust me, a .38 in the chest isn't a minor wound or a small problem.

 

[SniperStraz]

SniperStraz- You must be a young man with limited knowledge of the history of police sidearms.

I wouldn't assume this just because I feel that the .38 is outdated for LE work. I am a young man but I wouldn't call my knowledge limited.

The .38 Special revolver was THE standard duty weapon for most police officers for about 50 years or so.

Sticks were THE standard duty weapon for police officers for about 50 years or so at some point too. (now whos the history buff?)

Most cops (especially big city cops) aren't into guns and don't shoot well.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't sweat being armed with "only" a .38 Special revolver. I am confident that at SD ranges I can place my shots where they count...

Again, I agree. However out of all non-military handgun owners, LEOs are the most likely to be firing their weapons at greater than SD ranges. My general feeling is that if the perps have it, the cops need it.
I don't mean any offense to people or their guns. The .38 is a great CC and HD round, I just thought it to be a little odd that an LEO is still using it out of a short barrel. 15 years ago it wouldn't have come as a surprise but today things are different.

 

[Ron James]

There are a number of small Police departments still using the .38 special. It is still a good viable cartridge and used with good reliable firearms.
We've a number of police shooting here in Arizona, with over 50 shots fired and the suspect was only hit once. Why aim when you can spray and pray. No the .38 special is not old fashioned or obsolete. I have a number firearms at my disposal but I would not feel underarmed or uncomfortable at all carrying my little Chiefs Special. If I can't stop someone with 5 rounds of .38 Special, then I have no business carrying a firearm.

 

[Haywood]

It might have been a Backup Gun and an Officer who can place a shot and not depend on the spray and pray method. If you can put your shot in the correct place you don't need a hand full of ammo. I think to many people belive the crap they see on T.V. Today Police Departments that are worth a hoot, practice and trane and the Officers are not a bunch of fat asses.

 

[Soybomb]

I don't feel like I'm carrying all that great a round with a 2" .38spl. The 158gr lswchp will penetrate but likely not expand without a longer barrel. The new hotness speer load will expand but lacks penetration. All the +P rounds feel unpleasant in an aluminum frame gun. A standard pressure 148gr wadcutter isn't rough to shoot out of an airweight and will penetrate but it sure won't expand. Now when you change from a 2" lightweight snub to something like a 4" stainless steel gun some of those problems start to go away. Of course at that point .357 mag becomes a more viable option too.... I'd rather have a 9mm but the form factor of a .38spl snub can be nice.

 

[SniperStraz]

I have a number firearms at my disposal but I would not feel underarmed or uncomfortable at all carrying my little Chiefs Special.

Are you a cop?

It might have been a Backup Gun

The article makes it seem like the .38 was his main issue.

Thanx for your input thus far... Keep it coming.

 

[universal]

My first duty gun was a .38 and that department still carries them. I am now retired and can carry what I want and I choose a .38. I would have no problem carrying one on duty again. The .38 Special was THE police round for most of the 20th century. It really did not start being replaced until the 1980s and 1990s in some cases. The LT. I mentioned in another post could reload faster with his speed loaders than some officers could with their semi-autos.

 

[Will5A1]

The Taurus M85 is the same frame size as a Smith J frame, its designed to compete with the Smith M60 - this 5 shot small size revolver is appropriate for concealment, I think a beat cop would, or should, be carrying a larger frame arm. The Corbon DPX pushes the 110 gr bullet to at least 950 fps out of the Smith's 1 7/8" barrel; Taurus was making, until recently, a J frame size revolver in 9mm that used moonclips, I wonder how fast a 115 or 124 moved out of one of those barrels.

To me it seems its easier to train folks that have no experience and/or are not interested with a revolver, and I believe a revolver will continue to function if neglected when a semi might or might not. I don't know how to instill better fire discipline, it seems as too many individuals, when under fire, empty their magazines with little effect. I sure wouldn't want to take semi-autos away from anyone, though, because an LEO may have need for a high volume of fire.

My 2 cents worth.

 

[Iggy]

Me thinks there are an awful lot of dead people that are sure unhappy they were killed with a wimpy .38.

Don't seem right not to get killed with a more respectable cartridge.

 

[SniperStraz]

Will5A1, I'm not saying that revolvers are bad. I own one of those
Taurus 9mm snubbies and I trust my life to it. I'm just saying that maybe a larger revolver that can deliver a more powerful and more accurate "punch" would be more suitable.

 

[MCgunner]

I know several local sheriff detectives here that carry J frame .38 snubs on duty plain clothes. I reckon that would be their "issue weapon". Wonder how many detectives around the country still carry the "detective special"? I carry a .38 a lot, don't have a problem with it. It's been doing the job for over 100 years. It was even used in military service for a long, long time in the form of the Military and Police (later M10).

 

[isp2605]

Oct 2, 1996. I was running a fugitive apprehension unit at the time and an investigative unit. I was just going off duty to meet my wife for dinner when one of my guys called that he had located a federal fugitive we'd been looking for. The guy thought himself a mafia and survivalist type and bragged that he would never be taken alive. Since it had been one of those sit in the office, shuffle paper days I was only carrying my S&W 649 backup. My normal duty carry was a S&W 645, S&W 457 as backup, and my issued S&W 5904 which were in my squad so when I jumped in the car with one of the guys all I had was my 649. When we hit the hotel door where he had holed up he opened up on us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other. In a matter of a couple of seconds he fired 11 rds at us, nearly hitting me and 2 SWAT guys. According to the computer reconstruction one SWAT guy should have been hit 4 times and the other SWAT guy and I should have each been hit twice. Fortunately for us before we went back in he decided to put a .380 thru his head.
So my "duty gun" that night was my 649.
The 2" snub .38 is still one of the most popular back up guns carried by LEO today.

 

[shamrock404]

HI I am new here sure enjoyed reading your discussion on the 38 Special. I found a web site that had information on a lot of calibers including the 38 special. Dad worked for the Justice Department for 34 years. He carried the standard 38 special with a 44 frame, then he carried a S&W 36, S&W 19 2 inch,(when doing plain cloths work) and last he carried a Colt 10mm. Have a nice day and a wonderful week

http://www.firearmstactical.com/index.htm

I hope you enjoy the information here even though it is dated.
Continue on with the good discussion.

 

[aaronrkelly]

You would be surprised what some officers are carrying in small departments. They dont have the budget for the equipment or the training.

 

[Alan Fud]

" ... *** is an LEO in 2007 doing with a Taurus 85 as his "duty sidearm? ... "

Are you sure that it was a LEO and maybe not an armed guard? If I remember corrected, armed security guards in Florida are allowed to carry .38 revolvers ONLY.