.38 Snubby Service Weapon???

[Checkman]

Alan Fud

Are you sure that it was a LEO and maybe not an armed guard? If I remember corrected, armed security guards in Florida are allowed to carry .38 revolvers ONLY.

Good point. And why does Florida have such a law? Just curious.

 

[GRIZ22]

There are many plainclothes officers and detectives in NYPD that carry a J frame SW as their duty weapon.

 

[earplug]

Whats the deal

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but why would anyone think the a LEO and a private security need different levels of handguns?
I'm happy with a 642 and plenty of practice.
Sometimes the federal money trickling down to agencies has only been spent on hardware with the software getting neglected.

 

[18DAI]

Last time I had jury duty, the DA's detective had a model 66 3" on. It was in a belt slide holster. One of the bailiffs told us, that fella was the last officer in the county to carry a revolver, he didn't look too old neither.

 

[SniperStraz]

Oct 2, 1996. I was running a fugitive apprehension unit at the time and an investigative unit. I was just going off duty to meet my wife for dinner when one of my guys called that he had located a federal fugitive we'd been looking for. The guy thought himself a mafia and survivalist type and bragged that he would never be taken alive. Since it had been one of those sit in the office, shuffle paper days I was only carrying my S&W 649 backup. My normal duty carry was a S&W 645, S&W 457 as backup, and my issued S&W 5904 which were in my squad so when I jumped in the car with one of the guys all I had was my 649. When we hit the hotel door where he had holed up he opened up on us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other. In a matter of a couple of seconds he fired 11 rds at us, nearly hitting me and 2 SWAT guys. According to the computer reconstruction one SWAT guy should have been hit 4 times and the other SWAT guy and I should have each been hit twice. Fortunately for us before we went back in he decided to put a .380 thru his head.
So my "duty gun" that night was my 649.
The 2" snub .38 is still one of the most popular back up guns carried by LEO today.

So then you agree that while the snubby did get you through, it was not optimal?

Are you sure that it was a LEO and maybe not an armed guard? If I remember corrected, armed security guards in Florida are allowed to carry .38 revolvers ONLY.

...responds to a call...At the scene...

Certainly makes it seem like a cop.

 

[Stretchman]

Are you sure that it was a LEO and maybe not an armed guard? If I remember corrected, armed security guards in Florida are allowed to carry .38 revolvers ONLY.

True until July of last year. I qualified with a S&W model 64 stainless .38 which I carried back in 2001 until I retired from duty. I also carried as a backup weapon a Taurus titanium snubbie, loaded with corbons. I also had to qualify with the snub as I carried it on duty, but I was part of the Special Assignments Division for Navarro back when the war first kicked off, and kept it in my front left pocket ( permission from the State ) after 2 attempts by others to snatch my duty weapon.

So it is possible to acquire and dispatch a target at 25 yds with a snubbie. Takes a lot of practice, and the right grips. Most people don't grip check their weapons. Here's a test for you. Grab your gun from your holster ( unloaded ) and stand in front of the mirror with your eys closed. Open your eyes and see if you acquired you, or if the gun is pointing somewhere else. If it is, you need to etjer change your weapon, or it's grips. Mine ended up with Pachmeyrs. They point right, when the stock grips were off. Low light shoots are dependant on your body knowing where the weapon will point without seeing the sights. Even with night sights, you may not get a chance to get a sight picture until after you have had to fire.

Try it and see. It may save your life.

Stretch
Quit cigs 1M 20h 20m ago. So far saved $191.08, 1,273 cigs not smoked and counting ...

 

[Geronimo45]

Not optimal?

Gorblimey.

Regardless of IPSC rules and many gunwriters, calibers south of 9mm have killed people time and again. No caliber will make somebody "deader" than the other.
Shot placement means everything when it comes to stopping your opponent physically (making them physically unable to continue their attack).

Larger calibers have a slightly better chance of stopping someone than smaller calibers - with a greater diameter, you have a better chance of tearing through veins/arteries that would be on the fringes of smaller bullets.


P.S. Methinks the op-cay in the OP might've been an undercover/plainclothes cop.

 

[logical]

When you get below a .357, ammo selection becomes more of an issue. I have ruled out .380 simply because there are 9mm and larger caliber guns available that are no larger than most .380's. When carrying a .38 spl or even 9mm, just be sure you do some research and load it with a good performer such as Cor-Bon or Speer Gold Dot loads....they even have rounds designed for short barrels. The only problem with 9mm or .38 is that there are lots of loads out there that are sub-par for self defense and too many people don't spend any time selecting the good stuff.
A nice hot .38 +P probably equals a standard pressure 9mm round and approaches a run of the mill .357 when a short barrel is used.

 

[RustyShackelford]

FL security guard/officer laws-statues...

The great state of Florida requires armed security officers/guards(license G) to qualify with either a .380acp 9mmNATO or .38spl once a year. G licenses must be updated every 2 years. More information about Florida's security laws(493) can be found at www.myflorida.com . Go to the Div of Licensing, Dept of Agiculture & Consumer Affairs.

The Florida laws were last updated in 2005. Before the changes G security could only use DA revolvers in .38spl.

I use a Ruger GP-100 .38spl(surplus from the NYPD) DA only revolver. I plan to buy a SIGarms DAK P-226R or S&W M&P 9mmNATO soon.

Rusty S

 

[Will5A1]

I thought about this thread a bit more and it slowly dawned on me (memory isn't what it used to be) that I have and still occassionally see small frame .38as duty revolvers - but not on uniformed LEO's. Some ambulance drivers/paramedics/EMTs have been armed, I think it was either in Cincinnati or Columbus that I noticed Smith M36's on an ambulance squad belts'. I think Cincinnati FPD has, or at least used to, armed its supervisors (starting at the LT rank) with revolvers. It also seems to me that I saw a dog warden/aminal control type officer armed with a M36 but that may of been in Kentucky.

 

[isp2605]

So then you agree that while the snubby did get you through, it was not optimal?

Optimal? No, not that night. Optimal would have been my 870 or AR. But it was what I had on me at the time and what I had was the only option.
I still carry that same 649 most of the time because it's handy, conceals well regardless of the weather and clothes, and because it works.

 

[MCgunner]

Yes, a .38 snubby is more accurate than most compact .45s, .40s, and 9mms in my experience. I don't understand why people think a snub is a "belly gun" and can't be used beyond handshake range. Heck, I make hits on a 12" metal plate at 100 yards with my 2" model 85 when plinkin', and that's off hand! Takes some concentration, but not impossible. The gun shoots consistent 3" groups off sandbags at 25 yards. An awful lot of full size duty weapons have a hard time matching that! If you know how to shoot a handgun, a snubby is DEADLY accurate at 25 yards, even 50 fired from a barracaded position and with concentration. I shoot 6 out of 6 6" plates at 25 yards all the time off hand with mine. Is the kill zone of a human torso any smaller? Granted, in a fast fire fight you're likely not going to have time to make those hits, but that guy with all the firepower that isp2605 walked in on didn't hit anything, either. Spray and pray isn't quite as effective as a well aimed shot, seems to me.

You would be surprised what some officers are carrying in small departments. They dont have the budget for the equipment or the training.

PLPD (my little town of 12K) is issued the Glock .40. Glockj discounts to law enforcement make them almost impossible to refuse. You can't buy a Taurus revolver for what PD departments get Glocks for. Tough to justify issuing Smith and Wesson revolvers when the Glocks are 200 bucks cheaper.

 

[obiwan1]

This could have been in Singapore. IIRC their issued gun is a M85 3" - possibly with Crimson Trace grips.

 

[SniperStraz]

Some ambulance drivers/paramedics/EMTs have been armed, I think it was either in Cincinnati or Columbus that I noticed Smith M36's on an ambulance squad belts'.

Wow, I know that in GA its very much against policy and perhabs unlawful for medics to be armed. (alot are anyway) I thought that was a national thing, makes sense to me. But hey, I just keep learning new things everyday.

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

What's the big deal?
He was probably plainclothes, and carrying what his dept. issued to detectives. Who knows, A 3'' M85 might have even been his duty weapon.
A revolver with a 3'' barrel isn't a snub. A snub should be 2.5 and under.
.38 spl's, particulary M&P's/M10's and Colt PP or OP were police standard issue from about turn of the century to the 1980's. They were usuall loaded with 158 gr LRNs, which, although not ideal, got the job done fine for a long time. Then they switched to hollowpoints, which got th job done better. If they had switched to + P hollowpoints, a lot of patrolmen might still be carrying them.
PS, Cor-Bon 110 gr JHP- 351 ft-lbs out of 2''.

 

[SniperStraz]

were police standard issue from about turn of the century to the 1980's.

What year is it again?

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Turn of the Century=c.1900

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Sorry if I'm repeating what someone has already said because I didn't real all the posts.

The .38 Sp was the round of choice for over a half Century for LEO's all over the Country and some parts of the world too. I have a feeling it would still be so if it weren't for the fact the Police were outgunned but the BG carrying 17 round 9mm pistols and a few spare mags. IMO, the Police had no choice but to go to a handgun which provided them with at least as much firepower as the BG's.

An Officer or 2 carrying 6 shot revolvers don't stand a chance for a good outcome when faced with a street gang of 6 or more all carrying semi-autos with hi-cap mags. Even if the BG's spray and pray the odds are against the LEO's.

 

[SniperStraz]

Turn of the Century=c.1900

I know when the turn of the century was.

were police standard issue from about turn of the century to the 1980's.

The 1980s are long gone. Its almost 30 years later. Cops need better guns.

 

[VHinch]

Sniper-
No one is saying that LEOs shouldn't carry the best firepower available. However, as many current and former LEOs, myself included will tell you (and for that matter HAVE in this thread :banghead: ) there is nothing wrong with a .38 snub in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Clearly in this case it got the job done.

V

 

[universal]

I know I already posted a reply but I'll chime in again. I agree that the police needs the best weapons (that is why so many carry Glocks Sorry, couldn't help myself), but keep in mind that in some countries the police carries no firearms at all. Compared to nothing, a five shot revolver is great. Anyway, like I said before, as have others, the .38 Special is a fine round and I would carry one if I had to on duty again without any complaints. Most of us retired police officers in the U.S. can carry what we want and many of us choose .38 revolvers. I don't think it is because we are re-living the good old days but because we feel that we can get the job done with it.

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Better guns? I say he .38 is a darn fine gun.
As for fighting the gangs armed with hi-caps, that's why they invented the Micro-Uzi and the trench coat
Couldn't resist.

 

[MCgunner]

Even though 3" guns aren't really snubbies by loose definition (I guess), I still think of a M85 with a 3" as a snub. It's a J frame size gun, after all. I've found the added sight radius of a 3" barrel VERY helpful for precision, though. It's amazing how much tighter a 3" gun will group than a 2" gun for me. It's the added sight radius that does it. I'd have no use for the 2" gun, frankly, if it weren't for that they fit in a pocket and in most pockets, a 3" is too long. If I'm restricted to IWB anyway, I'll pick the 3" barrel every time!

And, I think if it's two on six, I want sub machine guns, shotguns, maybe grenade launchers. Better yet, back up. Seems, though, if fire power was that important, cops would never have given up their wonder nines. Some haven't and I reckon the .40s are just about as high cap, though. I don't think a pair of wonder nines is enough to take on 6 perhaps Tec nines/uzis/AKs, whatever the gangs have now. Maybe we should just issue M4s to all the beat cops?

 

[jad0110]

MCgunner,

I'm with you, if I was up against that many gang bangers I'd prefer backup too, and to be armed with a 12 or 20 Ga pump or AR myself. 'Course I'd rather not be there at all . If armed only with a handgun, I'd say it'd have to be either my S&W 686+ or Model 14, as I am pretty confident in my shooting abilities with either. I have a high-cap "Wonder9", but I'm not that great with it beyond 10 yards - actually a shoot my snub better .

I've often considered selling my XD9 to get a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911, as I never really warmed up to the trigger on the XD. And the 1911 is the only auto that I can shoot about as good as my revolvers.

High cap is fine and peachy if you are proficient and can put shots where they count and you have confidence in your abilities, but buying capacity for capacity's sake is rarely a wise idea IMHO.

As always, to each his own ... happy shooting!

 

[SniperStraz]

Maybe we should just issue M4s to all the beat cops?

I think they did that in LA. They should do it everywhere, but unfortunately the depts. have no money to speak of.