38 spcl .... light load part 2

[CMV]

A few weeks ago you guys helped me with a light load for a recoil-sensitive novice shooter. Everything seemed to be going well, but we didn't have her gun yet so I was doing all the testing in a 6" stainless GP100 (45 oz). So I found a great deal on a SW 638 & tried my light loads in it. They were noticeably softer than factory ammo, but still pretty snappy. My intent in the original go-around was to use components I already had on hand so was only using 158 gr LSWC bullets. From the little 1 7/8" barrel SW my loads clocked at 565 fps while the factory Am Eagle 158gr LRN clocked at 700 fps. So a lot of zip off the load, just not enough.

Several of you suggested going with a lighter bullet to help with perceived recoil. So I did some experimenting today & this is what I came up with.

Load I tried today was a 115gr MG CMJ 9mm (.3555) bullet, 3.9 gr W231, 1.485 OAL. It worked well, recoiled about like a 22LR, and sent the bullet downrange at a blistering 450-475 fps.

I used mixed brass with as many different HS as I had to see if I'd run into issues getting the bullet to stay in place. I ran the brass thru my 38 sizing die as normal & then thru my 9mm sizing die. I used a chamfer/debur tool & gave each mouth a couple twists - just broke the edge. I didn't use an expander. Seated with my 38 die. No crimp of any kind. First attempt I tried a light roll crimp & the bullet was firm in place but would spin like 22LR does sometimes. Figured that was no good so tried with the little chamfer & that seemed to work OK.

Just holding a round in my hand & pushing w/ my thumb, I can't get the bullet to move. Pushing pretty hard against the bench I can.

Was worried about accuracy from the undersized bullet but they seemed to do pretty well. I kept most shots in the 9-ring of a B29 target (B29 is about 2/3 the size of an IDPA target) & had a couple that wandered out into the 8 ring. I figure that's pretty decent for a snubnose 38 @ 14 yds regardless of the ammo.



So before I go any further & load up a large batch of these I have a few questions:

1. Is it ok to just proceed with what I have or is there a really good reason to go with a .357 diameter bullet?

2. If I do need a proper dia bullet, I assume I should choose a softer lead and not the 18 Brinell like I have now? I should not use a .357 diameter jacketed or plated bullet at this extremely low velocity correct?

3. Other than the risk of getting stuck in a longer barrel gun and the complete lack of usefulness of the round on critters & whatnot are there any other concerns I should address before moving forward?



Here are a couple recovered rounds. Shot these into an old ballistic panel. They just sort of 'stopped' & fell to the ground. I put a few into the long side of 2x4 and none penetrated. About 1" -1.25" penetration. So hopefully after a couple hundred rounds of these she'll be comfortable enough to hang on to something with a little more recoil. As it is now you could probably do the same amount of damage just throwing the bullets

 

[redbullitt]

For my recoil sensitive shooters I pretty much always start 22lr, then move to the full size revolver in 357 mag... Loaded with light 38s of course lol, so I think you are on the right track.

Those undersized jacketed bullets should not really pose any problem. Accuracy probably would not be as good though. I am surprised they did as well as you mention! Good to know in a pinch I think. Even though it is undersized, still make sure your shooter pays attention and sees the round impact. I always use extra caution on the extra slow loads.

That 638 is going to be snappy for a novice with whatever normal stuff you shoot in there. My LCR has some recoil with the light stuff for sure... I would be to let your recoil sensitive shooter use a larger, heavier gun. Light 38s in a gp100 will feel like a 22 lol. If that is not an option, then your .355 projectiles may be worth pursuing out of the snub. Maybe up the velocity a bit, then move to other projectiles as she progresses.

I doubt accuracy will be a primary concern now. Just get your shooter shooting first. More shots means more confidence!

18 hardness lead is overkill IMHO. I use air-cooled wheel weights in most all 38 loads. Hardness there is doubtful to be more than 11 or 12.

My usual soft load is 2.9g of red dot, 158 cast bullet. It is a powderpuff from full size revolvers, and mild from an sp101.

 

[Walkalong]

450 to 475 FPS is definitely light. That load might have trouble getting out of a longer barrel.

Test a couple powder forward and make sure they exit the barrel. It's easy to do. If they do not, you'll need to up the charge or make sure you always raise the barrel before each shot.

At that level of recoil you don't need to worry about bullet creep, so your neck tension is going to be sufficient.

Accuracy sounds like it is good enough.

Companies offer some pretty light .358 lead or coated bullets, so those would be a good choice to try as well.

 

[evan price]

Honestly at this point I would try the old 148-gr full wadcutter with 2.5 of Bullseye or Titegroup. That load is safe in most standard pistol barrels (as in- it makes it out the end of the barrel) and it is practically the default light load for a 38 special. Other than 22LR I can't think of much lighter especially in a 38 and you wanting it to shoot in a snub or a 6" GP100.

 

[joneb]

How about something like this; http://www.gunsamerica.com/914484277/Harrington-Richardson-model-732-S-W-.htm

 

[FMJBT]

I will give you a load that is less than a 22.

There is no published data on this, so use at your own risk.

125 gr xtreme
2.5 gr of TITEWAD (not titegroup)

 

[Mad Chemist]

Another vote for the 148 gr HBWC. Use the hollow base not the bevel base. You can reduce these very low without sticking one in the bbl. I would think that the 9mm bullets would have a lower POA than the heavier ones.

 

[Sunray]

A 9mm bullet is the wrong diameter for the .38 Special.
3.9 gr of W231 is well under minimum for a jacketed 110 grain .38 bullet. Below minimum loads can be as dangerous as above max loads. S'ok for a 125 cast though. Barely above minimum.
"...no published data..." Very good way to damage you and your firearm. "designed for 12 gauge only." according to Hodgdon.

 

[Bud0505]

Lot's of good advice has been given. You might want to look at trying a Hogue mono grip on your 638. Made a difference on my 442 and the grips were only $22 dollars to there a outs.

 

[Dudedog]

Missouri Bullet has these in 105gr that are the correct diameter.


http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=156&category=5&secondary=9&keywords=


Really happy with every type of bullet I have ordered from them.
Great people.

 

[bullseye308]

I have a 65# son that shoots my GP100 6" using the 2.7gr. Bullseye load with lee 148 gr wc with no problems, and he likes it now. I have introduced a few new shooters to the fun with that load and they all loved it.

 

[WestKentucky]

Doubt it walkalong. I have been doing the exact same in my buntline 15" for a couple years...with a lot less powder. This is a great combo for me. I would shoot a hundred and then check for lead buildup at the muzzle and forcing cone areas. If they are clean shoot the snot out of it....and do it in bright sunlight at longer range so you can watch your bullet go to the target like I do.

And to all you nay-sayers, I have shot at least 2000 of these with nary a bit of damage, and only very light leading. My only complaint is the cylinder face gets pretty dirty.

 

[Toprudder]

"...no published data..." Very good way to damage you and your firearm. "designed for 12 gauge only." according to Hodgdon.

They do list loads for 9mm, 38super, and 45acp. But, yeah, no published loads for 38spl.

 

[Walkalong]

Doubt it walkalong. I have been doing the exact same in my buntline 15" for a couple years...with a lot less powder. This is a great combo for me. I would shoot a hundred and then check for lead buildup at the muzzle and forcing cone areas. If they are clean shoot the snot out of it....and do it in bright sunlight at longer range so you can watch your bullet go to the target like I do.

And to all you nay-sayers, I have shot at least 2000 of these with nary a bit of damage, and only very light leading. My only complaint is the cylinder face gets pretty dirty.

That load might have trouble getting out of a longer barrel.

Is this what you are doubting? I said it "might". You say it does just fine, so we'll go with that. The point still remains the same, and is valid. When loading so light, be careful about all the bullets leaving the barrel.

Which powder might I ask?

 

[g.willikers]

Nothing to add except at that speed, if it's outdoors and a humid day, and depending on the position of the sun, you should be able to see the bullets heading toward the target.
She should get a kick out of that.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am with Dudedog.
You can improvise with 9mm bullets but there are 105-125 gr .358" bullets available for gimmick free loading of mild .38 Specials. A CAS here loads a 125 with 2.8 gr of Clays.

 

[WestKentucky]

Is this what you are doubting? I said it "might". You say it does just fine, so we'll go with that. The point still remains the same, and is valid. When loading so light, be careful about all the bullets leaving the barrel.

Which powder might I ask?

Yes, your right. In mine I loaded from minimum 38 spl down to near nothing using 231 under 6 different bullets I had partial boxes of. They were 115 and 125 gr in cast, plated, and fmj. All performed similarly but jacketed took a bit more powder. I got to 2.2 gr 231 which was really too light and went back to 2.5 with lead and plated in both weights. Fmj I stopped at 3.0 gr 231 because it was getting mighty light. I believe I would have had issues with fmj had I gone to 2.5 gr.

It's worth mentioning here that my Lee safety scale was cracked and glued back together so it likely altered the actual weight from what was shown on the bars.

Definitely worth noting is that neck tension is critical in this light of a load. Poor neck tension gave greatly reduced loads which were pretty scary. After my initial workdown I pulled anything that felt soft when seating. The first batch I segregated a few in the 2.5 range with cast that had poor neck tension and they were a lot slower and we're dropping quickly when they left the barrel.

 

[mdi]

There are some things you won't be able to get around and recoil is one of them. Perhaps you can find some .358" balls and just put enough Bullseye in the case to get the bullet outta the barrel. I don't think I'd use .355" bullets in anything except my 9mms

Maybe your new shooter would feel "safer" with a shooting glove? Can't give much help for someone that recoil is "excessive" in a 45 oz. gun.