.38 special loads for a gunfight?

[Mixed Nuts]

I've seen a number of videos on the .38 special where the presenter recommends "quality hollow points" - or suchlike - for defensive carry in a snub nose revolver. And some of the guys making this recommendation are pretty knowledgeable on subjects I know a little about. So I'm inclined to consider their opinions.

But every time I hear somebody recommending hollow points for the .38 - particularly bullets lighter than 158gr - I just reflexively shake my head in the negative.

My thinking is that light, hollow point .38s just don't go fast enough out of a snub (or maybe any .38) to give good expansion and that if they expand they wont go deep enough to reach vital organs with torso hits that find bone or heavy clothing impeding the bullet.

For the slower bullets, doesn't the shooter want a heavy, hard-ish bullet with a wide metplat or a bullet in the LSWC design? Something that has a chance to push in deep enough to reach vitals even at lower velocities?

I'm curious what others hereabouts think on this subject.

 

[Jim Watson]

Luckygunner shot a number of loads into "clothed" Cleargel.
Not exactly FBI protocol, but similar.
Several hollow points gave decent expansion and penetration.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

Of course the Cool Guys shoot wadcutters straight to the heart.

 

[IlikeSA]

I like wadcutters. They are accurate within reason, provide a full meplat for tissue damage, and are easy on the recoil. If you watch the brassfetcher videos you see that a 38 wadcutter loses significant speed upon entering ballistic gel but still manages to exit. Lucky Gunner also has a youtube video about 38 wadcutters.

My concern with hollow points is that they would not expand at the low velocity, especially if they were clogged or hit something before (an arm, leather jacket, etc). In this case, it would behave like a round nose, pushing flesh out of the way rather than cutting it like a hole punch.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Before I changed over from my S&W 642 to my Kahr CW9, my load of choice was the Speer 135gr Gold Dot Short Barrel +P. I thought that offered a good balance between controlability, penetration, and expansion.

doesn't the shooter want a heavy, hard-ish bullet with a wide metplat or a bullet in the LSWC design? Something that has a chance to push in deep enough to reach vitals even at lower velocities?

That belief was prior to many advancements in bullet design. Besides a lot of over-penetration, heavy bullets traveling at defensive speeds (+P) made rapid followup shots more difficult and many times less accurate. Also remember that the desired defensive characteristics are very different than hunting ones.

Besides sufficient penetration, the most important thing is the ability to put multiple accurate shots onto the target.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Before I changed over from my S&W 642 to my Kahr CW9, my load of choice was the Speer 135gr Gold Dot Short Barrel +P. I thought that offered a good balance between controlability, penetration, and expansion.

I agree, it's been a good choice for me too.

Don't get caught up in all the testing and numbers. IMO accuracy in your gun is most important. The best expanding bullet in the world will do you no good unless you hit the target. Most current bullet constructions will do as good a job as possible so find one that's accurate in your gun and practice.

 

[labnoti]

Why would you want to limit the gun you'd use in a "gunfight" to the low pressures of .38 Special or .38 Special +P so that it would be compatible with antique guns and replicas? Unless the gunfight is some kind of re-enactment, you could use .38 Special ammunition that is loaded to a modern pressure of 35,000 psi (same as 9mm, .40S&W etc.), and a modern gun that is built for those pressures. S&W has made them since 1930, but since 1935, most of them have had the cylinders reamed out farther for .357 magnum cases because there is no practical drawback to this added versatility.

I believe you'll find that 125 grain bullets have substantially less felt-recoil than 158 grain, and given a sufficient pressure limit, they can be driven to velocities where both penetration and expansion are sufficient. The widely accepted effectiveness of the 9mm is ample evidence that bullets in these lighter weights (115-124gr.) and diameter (.356) indeed meet and exceed standards for penetration and expansion, provided they are not limited to 17,000psi. It does not take a .357 magnum with full-pressure behind a 158 gr. bullet to perform adequately within handgun standards. One could instead opt for lower-velocity bullets of greater mass, but it is unlikely one could obtain the best results with only the lowest pressures.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

My thinking is that light, hollow point .38s just don't go fast enough out of a snub (or maybe any .38) to give good expansion and that if they expand they wont go deep enough to reach vital organs with torso hits that find bone or heavy clothing impeding the bullet.

For jacketed hollow points, I agree with you. However, these seem to do the trick really well.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...in-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-20

Start the video at about 4:50 to jump straight to these.

 

[WrongHanded]

I've seen a number of videos on the .38 special where the presenter recommends "quality hollow points" - or suchlike - for defensive carry in a snub nose revolver. And some of the guys making this recommendation are pretty knowledgeable on subjects I know a little about. So I'm inclined to consider their opinions.

But every time I hear somebody recommending hollow points for the .38 - particularly bullets lighter than 158gr - I just reflexively shake my head in the negative.

My thinking is that light, hollow point .38s just don't go fast enough out of a snub (or maybe any .38) to give good expansion and that if they expand they wont go deep enough to reach vital organs with torso hits that find bone or heavy clothing impeding the bullet.

For the slower bullets, doesn't the shooter want a heavy, hard-ish bullet with a wide metplat or a bullet in the LSWC design? Something that has a chance to push in deep enough to reach vitals even at lower velocities?

I'm curious what others hereabouts think on this subject.

That's pretty much how I feel, about it too. What I know about it, is much less....if anything. I trust a heavier bullet because.....it makes me feel good. And also because 158gr shoots POA in my LCR.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

In a snub nose, I prefer to use semi or full wadcutters in a heavy (158 gr) bullet. I know we may overuse him, but Jim Cirillo is probably the penultimate example of combat with the .38 special. and he preferred HI Speed .38s the only one making those that I know of is buffalo bore and MAYBE Underwood?

 

[Wichaka]

Notes I took from a seminar that Dr. Gary Roberts presented some years ago;

There have been many reports in the scientific literature, by Dr. Fackler and others, recommending the .38 Sp 158 gr +P LSWCHP as offering adequate performance. Please put this in context for the time that these papers were written in the late 1980's and early 1990's--no denim testing was being performed at that time, no robust expanding JHP's, like the Barnes Tac-XP, Federal Tactical & HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Winchester Ranger Talon or Ranger Bonded existed. In the proper historical perspective, the 158 gr +P LSWCHP fired out 3-4" barrel revolvers was one of the best rounds available--and it is still a viable choice, as long as you understand its characteristics.

With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4LD covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame. When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better.

Currently the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and loads using the Barnes 110 gr all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading ) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 Sp 2” BUG; the Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.

 

[kBob]

Even big name folks sometimes mess up. One night at a meeting around 1990 Dr Fackler was lamenting that no one had made a 230 grain HP .45 ACP bullet. I reached under my jacket, popped the mag release on my Series 70MkIV and shucked a Norma bulleted 230 grain HP into his hand. Now yes it was a hand load, but the bullets were available. Gel testing twernt inexpensive in those days so it never got tested. In water they did the same as the similar jacketed HP 9 silly meter of that design and time period....the exposed lead curled back a bit, but the jacket prevented further expansion.

Black Talon was out and Dr. Fackler was interested in the idea that it MIGHT cut structures in passing but not sure it would. He did wonder aloud about surgeons then lambasting the threat to medical folks those "claws" represented and was curious how they handled glass plastic or metal fragments of any other kind in the ER.

He also wanted to do some tests with "Pin Grabber" style lead ammo but nothing came of it as he did not have any $$$ backing once he retired from the Government.

He did poo poo my then trust ( actually I still do trust them, but wonder, I mean mine are obviously magic bullets) of 158-160 grain SWC out of snubbie .38s by showing me the results of a test he did where he shot gel with sand in it. The meplat showed a good bit of grind marks from the sand, but the shoulders were clean. He theorized that the mepat caused a significant temporary streatch such that the shoulder of the bullets was not touching the gel as it passed through. He also pointed out that in meat tests and autopsies the 158 grain SWC left a pretty much standard "star shaped wound" on entry with little difference from a FMJ in appearance. He pointed out, as I had noticed, that DEWC hard cast and fast as you can make them go without issues tended to make an entry hole in bare tissue much like a hole punch in paper, though to what depth was questionable. Might be interesting to look at some holes through skin covered meat shot through cloth layers with DEWC.

In person he was a lot less of an iconoclast than some would have him have been. In person he even had occasional good things to say about M&S and their work......occasional.

-kBob

 

[labnoti]

I remain unconvinced that a non-expanding bullet's nose shape has any significant effect on wounding. I posit that a wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, round nose bullet, or any of the "venturi effect" shapes like Lehigh or Interceptor all produce similar wound channels for a given diameter and penetration depth. If wadcutters wounded better, we'd all load our bullets backward.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

You base your unconvinced notion on what? Cirillo was in fights and saw first hand how bullet shape effects terminal ballistics, we see the same thing on game when using LRN or LFN rounds vs a Semi Wadcutter. I love revolvers more than any semi auto but semi's are the main type of sidearms now, so name me one outside of a custom made target gun that can reliably feed from a magazine into a chamber? Maybe thats why we dont load them backwards.

 

[Jim Watson]

I read that when NYPD management grudgingly agreed to upgrade from .38 lead roundnose, it was only to standard velocity semiwadcutters. There was little if any gain in effectiveness.

 

[RPZ]

I think some deer, pig and goat shooting is in order. Then we'll see what these bullets can do.

 

[V-fib]

standard LSWC is what I carry in my 642

v-fib

 

[GRIZ22]

I'm another believer in the wadcutter in a 2" 38 special.

As others have already said,

1. Bullet is already in efficient shape. HBWC gives the bullet the characteristic of not tumbling and driving through.

2. Easy on you and the gun. Encourages practice

Also a fan of Jim Cirillo who spent a lot of time researching the best bullet. They were a wadcutter, some with a cup point.

Carry SWCs for a easy reload.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

My thinking is that light, hollow point .38s just don't go fast enough out of a snub (or maybe any .38) to give good expansion and that if they expand they wont go deep enough to reach vital organs with torso hits that find bone or heavy clothing impeding the bullet.

That's always been my concern as well. I settled on the above mentioned Speer 135 gr +p load as it is manageable and quick for me. But I carry them in a 3" Ruger SP101. I found them to be manageable in a J frame also, but realized I didn't really care for the j frame to begin with. The Ruger suits me better. 110 and 125 gr loads don't really happen for me.

I tend to shoot 158 gr or heavier loads in 357.

 

[tbob38]

Even big name folks sometimes mess up. One night at a meeting around 1990 Dr Fackler was lamenting that no one had made a 230 grain HP .45 ACP bullet. I reached under my jacket, popped the mag release on my Series 70MkIV and shucked a Norma bulleted 230 grain HP into his hand. Now yes it was a hand load, but the bullets were available. Gel testing twernt inexpensive in those days so it never got tested. In water they did the same as the similar jacketed HP 9 silly meter of that design and time period....the exposed lead curled back a bit, but the jacket prevented further expansion.



In person he was a lot less of an iconoclast than some would have him have been. In person he even had occasional good things to say about M&S and their work......occasional.

-kBob

What is/are M&S?

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

What is/are M&S?

Believe he is speaking of Marshall and Sanow, they had a study on the effectiveness of handgun cartridges that is either touted as gospel or touted as debunked. Either way its a controversial study that may have some merits also has detractors, you'd really need to read it for yourself and make your mind on it.

 

[kBob]

yep. They based their ideas on stopping power on street numbers. They got X number of reports or torso shots and those resulted in X-N "one shot stops".

Nothing repeatable or standardized to look at, some argued.

Dr. Fackler brought me some of their numbers while I was at University of Florida and had me look for oddities. He was very interested in how one particular load of .38 SPL defensive ammo worked BETTER in two inch barrels rather than four inch. He saw this as a failure in their work and numbers initially. How could the bullet stop better at lower velocities? I figured the lower velocity bullets failed to expand or expand as violently and as soon and resulted in just the sort of deep penetrating wounds Dr. Fackler thought worked.

It was an interesting time. We was active in 2AD politics at the time and had me as his guest at an Academics For 2AD gathering in Orlando and as a speaker there during that time. He was very interested in Ring Foil designs for shotgun slugs at the time but again lacked financing.

-kBob

 

[JTHunter]

Mixed Nuts - the 158 gr. loads are a decent choice for a snubbie. Those are available in wadcutters (all lead) as well as a "semi-jacketed flat point" (SJFP). With the lower speed from a snubbie, the jacket material might keep the flat point from mushrooming very much but it WILL keep the rifling from getting clogged with lead. If the wadcutters (WC) are made with "hard cast" lead, they may not lead up the barrel as much but may be too hard to mushroom adequately, like the SJFP. What the hard cast lead and SJFP will do better than a soft lead WC is to mushroom at lower speeds because of the softness of that type of lead. That could also keep them from reaching vital organs, so it is a trade off.
If you reload the .38 Special AND your gun is rated for "+ P" (higher than standard pressure loads), you might try using the 158 gr. SJFP with a near maximum charge of your choice of powder (I'm using CFE Pistol) to get as much speed as possible.
Good luck.

 

[tbob38]

Believe he is speaking of Marshall and Sanow, they had a study on the effectiveness of handgun cartridges that is either touted as gospel or touted as debunked. Either way its a controversial study that may have some merits also has detractors, you'd really need to read it for yourself and make your mind on it.

Thanks, I have all of the Marshall and Sanow books.

 

[Sistema1927]

the 158 gr. loads are a decent choice for a snubbie. Those are available in wadcutters (all lead)....

Who makes a 158 gr. full wadcutter (not SW)?

 

[tbob38]

yep. They based their ideas on stopping power on street numbers. They got X number of reports or torso shots and those resulted in X-N "one shot stops".

Nothing repeatable or standardized to look at, some argued.

Dr. Fackler brought me some of their numbers while I was at University of Florida and had me look for oddities. He was very interested in how one particular load of .38 SPL defensive ammo worked BETTER in two inch barrels rather than four inch. He saw this as a failure in their work and numbers initially. How could the bullet stop better at lower velocities? I figured the lower velocity bullets failed to expand or expand as violently and as soon and resulted in just the sort of deep penetrating wounds Dr. Fackler thought worked.

It was an interesting time. We was active in 2AD politics at the time and had me as his guest at an Academics For 2AD gathering in Orlando and as a speaker there during that time. He was very interested in Ring Foil designs for shotgun slugs at the time but again lacked financing.

-kBob

OK, another dumb question. 2AD and 2AD politics?

Along with your 38 Special 2 and 4 inch story: When I was a teener (1950's), I had a .22 6" revolver and a .22 rifle. With the same ammunition, the revolver would repeatedly penetrate more pine boards than the rifle would. Which I found very interesting.