I think this guy would say, "It depends on the shot!" A .380 is quite sufficient....
Isn't Bond's PPK chambered in .32 ACP?
.380 good enough or 9mm not enough?
- Thread starter slabuda
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Isn't Bond's PPK chambered in .32 ACP?
wanderinwalker
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9mm reload using Alliant Power Pistol and 115gr Winchester FMJs averaged 1090-fps from the 3" barrel of a PF-9 and 1186-fps from a 4.5" Glock 17. Didn't chrono them from the 3.5" Glock 26, but I'd expect over 1100-average.
Can't comment on the fireball in low-light, other than to note Power Pistol and most everything I've tried that's +P in 9mm tends to have plenty of flash and blast!
Can't comment on the fireball in low-light, other than to note Power Pistol and most everything I've tried that's +P in 9mm tends to have plenty of flash and blast!
The inherent weakness associated with the .380 lies in the fact that it pushes a light bullet at slow velocities, compared to other serious calibers. This means less kinetic energy and penetration. The .380 usually has only about half the power the standard 9mm cartridge.
I consider it the absolute minimum for serious defense. To be honest I'm not all that comfortable with it.
I consider it the absolute minimum for serious defense. To be honest I'm not all that comfortable with it.
Mad Magyar
Member
Yeah, I think you're right on this movie...He moves up to a .380 later on and that even changes in future episodes...
KodiakBeer
member
Defensive shootings usually occur at night.
The .380 was designed to be shot from a short barrel, that's why it has less powder. The 9mm was designed to be shot from a full sized pistol on the order of a 5" barrel.
When you fire each round form a 3" barrel, the 9mm has less than 100fps advantage. 950fps from a premium .380, to about 1025fps from a 9mm.
That's not enough velocity difference to worry about, though the 9 has a bit heavier slug and better penetration. The real disadvantage though, is the enormous fireball coming out of the end of the 3" barrel when you fire a 9mm. The great majority of defensive shootings happen at night and you've just blinded yourself. You can't see your sights, you can't see your assailant. In the real world, the guy with the .380 can continue to keep his eye on the front sight and keep shooting. The guy with the mini-9mm is reduced to spray and pray.
I'd make the same argument for a .357 snubby - great ballistics, unquestioned stopping power, but you're at a severe disadvantage after the first shot. For day carry - great! At night, not the best choice.
MCgunner
Member
I don't know about Bond's PPK, but he needs to learn the NRA gun safety rules.
snooperman
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I can partially agree with kodiak as I have ...
done some night shooting on the little range on my farm and the fireball coming from the muzzle of a 9mm is much greater than the 380 or even the 38 special. That said, the 9mm coming out of a 3" barrel has much more energy, as he said than the 380 because of its greater bullet mass. Even from a short barrel , like my Keltec P11 or the Kahr PM9, the 9mm wins hands down in stopping power for sure. My 70 year old mind can not remember the web site on the 380 vs 9mm with energy tables and bullet weights, but I know I studied it not long ago. Suffice to say , I would take the 9mm over the 380 any day for CCW.
done some night shooting on the little range on my farm and the fireball coming from the muzzle of a 9mm is much greater than the 380 or even the 38 special. That said, the 9mm coming out of a 3" barrel has much more energy, as he said than the 380 because of its greater bullet mass. Even from a short barrel , like my Keltec P11 or the Kahr PM9, the 9mm wins hands down in stopping power for sure. My 70 year old mind can not remember the web site on the 380 vs 9mm with energy tables and bullet weights, but I know I studied it not long ago. Suffice to say , I would take the 9mm over the 380 any day for CCW.
KodiakBeer
member
Snooperman, I can't disagree with the 9mm having an edge in stopping power, even in a very small package. I'm just arguing that you need to hit the target for that extra stopping power to be useful.
I'd argue that if you want a really small handgun for pocket carry, the .380 is a better choice. If you really want a 9mm, then you might want to step up a little in size to perhaps a 4" barrel carried in an IWB holster.
My .380 is pretty much a tee shirt and shorts pistol. My primary is a compact aluminum .45.
I don't have any compact 9mms, but if I did I'd go out and shoot it against a .380 at night then post the groups here on the forum. It would make for an interesting thread, instead of just chatting theory.
I'd argue that if you want a really small handgun for pocket carry, the .380 is a better choice. If you really want a 9mm, then you might want to step up a little in size to perhaps a 4" barrel carried in an IWB holster.
My .380 is pretty much a tee shirt and shorts pistol. My primary is a compact aluminum .45.
I don't have any compact 9mms, but if I did I'd go out and shoot it against a .380 at night then post the groups here on the forum. It would make for an interesting thread, instead of just chatting theory.
1SOW
Member
Any gun is better than no gun, especially at close range.
I've been discouraged by 380s due to experiences.
Shooting at the range, I've personally seen 3X where a .380 will accurately hit a steel 'popper' and fail to make it fall or even move. A .22lr will occassionally knock one down if it hits high on the plate.
A cheap 115gr 9mm (Value paks, Rem, Win whatever) knocks them down smoothly.
This isn't meant as an accusation, just why I can't have faith in .380
I have trouble relying on a pistol with so little knock-down power.
Type/amount of powder/barrel length determines flash.
I've been discouraged by 380s due to experiences.
Shooting at the range, I've personally seen 3X where a .380 will accurately hit a steel 'popper' and fail to make it fall or even move. A .22lr will occassionally knock one down if it hits high on the plate.
A cheap 115gr 9mm (Value paks, Rem, Win whatever) knocks them down smoothly.
This isn't meant as an accusation, just why I can't have faith in .380
I have trouble relying on a pistol with so little knock-down power.
Type/amount of powder/barrel length determines flash.
snooperman
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Kodiak , your point is well taken...
The 380 at night is a much better pocket gun , for the reason you have stated. You are correct in your assumption that most confrontations occur at night. For my myself , I have always preferred the 9mm as my primary gun . I might have to practice at night some more on my little range and rethink my night carry as my eyes are partially blinded when shooting the 38 special +P or 9mm carry gun at night .
The 380 at night is a much better pocket gun , for the reason you have stated. You are correct in your assumption that most confrontations occur at night. For my myself , I have always preferred the 9mm as my primary gun . I might have to practice at night some more on my little range and rethink my night carry as my eyes are partially blinded when shooting the 38 special +P or 9mm carry gun at night .
MCgunner
Member
The 9x19 has no muzzle flash. Do you shoot .357 magnum? That's muzzle flash. I'll handle what little muzzle flash the 9 produces for the power it produces.
That's another reason I prefer my subcompact pocket nine, MUCH more accurate than my .380. I can make head shots at 25 yards, not that 25 yards is defense range, but I'm just sayin'. I have less confidence in my .380's accuracy. OTOH, this little 9x18 I have..........
That's another reason I prefer my subcompact pocket nine, MUCH more accurate than my .380. I can make head shots at 25 yards, not that 25 yards is defense range, but I'm just sayin'. I have less confidence in my .380's accuracy. OTOH, this little 9x18 I have..........
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MCgunner
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Oh, okay, always leave your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot. That makes sense.
MCgunner
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Poppers are usually adjustable via a screw at the base that adjusts how close vertical the pepper rests. Closer to vertical, the less momentum it takes to knock it over. But, flesh ain't steel. I do agree, though, that I prefer the 9.
huntsman
Member
Seems you've solved your puzzle already, which IMHO is more important than ballistic discussions.
Life can be full of decisions and compromises and in the end you know your situation better than anyone here.
Oh, okay, always leave your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot. That makes sense.
Maybe he's about to shoot somebody over his shoulder, sort of like Bruce Lee and his classic no-look, over-the-shoulder punch in the face.
snooperman
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Yes, the 357 magnum has...
much more flash than a 9mm for sure. I have not shot my wife's SIG P232 380 at night. I am going to try it tonight. I have shot the KelTec P11 that I carry at night and while the flash is there and prevented me from seeing the target clearly, I was able to fire follow-up shots and hit the man-size target in the chest . However, the man was stationary too and not firing back either. Also, I was shooting at 3-7 yards . I am sure the flash will affect the bad guy too. Regardless , I am going to do some night shooting for fun, especially with my 38 special snubby +P loads and the 9mm. I will try 380, even though I have never cared for its puny power.
much more flash than a 9mm for sure. I have not shot my wife's SIG P232 380 at night. I am going to try it tonight. I have shot the KelTec P11 that I carry at night and while the flash is there and prevented me from seeing the target clearly, I was able to fire follow-up shots and hit the man-size target in the chest . However, the man was stationary too and not firing back either. Also, I was shooting at 3-7 yards . I am sure the flash will affect the bad guy too. Regardless , I am going to do some night shooting for fun, especially with my 38 special snubby +P loads and the 9mm. I will try 380, even though I have never cared for its puny power.
PhiloebeddoUSA
Member
Isn't Bond's PPK chambered in .32 ACP?
Dr. No quote (one of my faves)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Major Boothroyd: [to M, referring to Bond's Beretta] Nice and light... in a lady's handbag.
M: Any comment, 007?
James Bond: I disagree, sir. I've carried the Beretta for ten years, and I've never missed with it.
M: No, but it jammed on you last job, and you spent six months in hospital in consequence. When you carry a 00 number, you have a license to kill, not get killed. Furthermore, since I've been head of MI7
[sic - MI6]
M: there's been a forty percent drop in casualties, and I want to keep it that way. From now on you carry the Walther... unless you'd rather return to standard intelligence duties.
James Bond: No sir,I would not.
M: [to Boothroyd] Show him, Armourer.
Major Boothroyd: [to Bond] Walther PPK, 7.65 millimeter, with a delivery like a brick through a plate-glass window. The American CIA swear by them.
32 auto = 7.65
Dr. No quote (one of my faves)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Major Boothroyd: [to M, referring to Bond's Beretta] Nice and light... in a lady's handbag.
M: Any comment, 007?
James Bond: I disagree, sir. I've carried the Beretta for ten years, and I've never missed with it.
M: No, but it jammed on you last job, and you spent six months in hospital in consequence. When you carry a 00 number, you have a license to kill, not get killed. Furthermore, since I've been head of MI7
[sic - MI6]
M: there's been a forty percent drop in casualties, and I want to keep it that way. From now on you carry the Walther... unless you'd rather return to standard intelligence duties.
James Bond: No sir,I would not.
M: [to Boothroyd] Show him, Armourer.
Major Boothroyd: [to Bond] Walther PPK, 7.65 millimeter, with a delivery like a brick through a plate-glass window. The American CIA swear by them.
32 auto = 7.65
KodiakBeer
member
That would make an interesting thread, especially if the barrel lengths are the same.
snooperman
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Night shooting the 380, 9mm and 38 +P snubby..
I just got in from my little pistol range about 75 yards from the barn. Pedro, my mule was braying loudly the whole time as he wanted to join me from his corral. Well, I shot my wife's SIG P232 380 at a man size target at about 7 yards and it was quite easy to hit this target even in the moonlit night with quick follow-up shots. I also tried my 9mm KelTec P11 and the Snubnose 38 special . Both the 9mm and the 38 special with +P loads had much more flash than the 380. However, I managed to get follow-up shots quickly with them regardless of the flash and my shots were in the chest area. All shooting was at 7 yards. I admit that Kodiak is right about the 380 having much less flash at night and it not bothering my vision as much. When I fired the 9mm and 38 special , I knew ahead of time where that target was and since it was not moving , I just fired at that spot.If it was someone moving or not still or on the ground the flash could have prevented me from getting a quick follow-up shot on the person. It is not easy to replicate an exact scenario of what could happen. My own thoughts are that I personally do not feel that the 380 is enough gun and much prefer the 9mm or 38 special snubby with +P loads for CCW at night or day. But, Kodiak has point that I can not disagree with .
I just got in from my little pistol range about 75 yards from the barn. Pedro, my mule was braying loudly the whole time as he wanted to join me from his corral. Well, I shot my wife's SIG P232 380 at a man size target at about 7 yards and it was quite easy to hit this target even in the moonlit night with quick follow-up shots. I also tried my 9mm KelTec P11 and the Snubnose 38 special . Both the 9mm and the 38 special with +P loads had much more flash than the 380. However, I managed to get follow-up shots quickly with them regardless of the flash and my shots were in the chest area. All shooting was at 7 yards. I admit that Kodiak is right about the 380 having much less flash at night and it not bothering my vision as much. When I fired the 9mm and 38 special , I knew ahead of time where that target was and since it was not moving , I just fired at that spot.If it was someone moving or not still or on the ground the flash could have prevented me from getting a quick follow-up shot on the person. It is not easy to replicate an exact scenario of what could happen. My own thoughts are that I personally do not feel that the 380 is enough gun and much prefer the 9mm or 38 special snubby with +P loads for CCW at night or day. But, Kodiak has point that I can not disagree with .
1SOW
Member
The adjustment for USPSA is 120ish power factor, or about 950'/sec for a 124gr 9mm-----S L O W.
You're correct, flesh isn't steel; but larger bullet mass is larger impact.
KodiakBeer
member
I really appreciate your little test! It sounds like you've at least partially disproved my opinion. I'm not in a financial position to buy a new piece right now, but I've been considering retiring my Mustang because the value is turning it into a collector piece, that maybe should be put away. I'll certainly look into one of the mini-nines when I get around to shopping again.
Stopping Power
I suggest perusing this site:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
Based on actual, real world shootings, one shot stopping power with a .380 is in the 70% range.
For a 9mm, one shot stopping power is in the 80% range. For a 38 special 50-60%. 45s are all over the board. Is carrying a "Dirty Harry" hog leg with laser sights and two spare magazine for a 10% advantage worth it? Will you carry it at all?
You'll actually carry the .380 LCP in your back pocket 'cause it fits. The 1911 "I dunno. It's too friggin' hot today. I don't want to mess with it."
The stopping power of the .380 you actually carry is way better than the .45 you leave on the dresser at home.
For civilian concealed carry, the objective is to get out of trouble, NOT to arrest the bad guy. Staying out of the bad areas of town, making noise and running away safely counts for civilians. A .380 that you actually use may fill the bill. For cops who have to arrest someone and deal with gangbangers, maybe a bigger gun is warranted, but for a guy who's idea of a night out is bowling or dinner at Outback Streakhouse, I dunno.
Most police shooting happen within 8-10 feet. Most policemen who are shot are shot with their own gun (by accident or intentially). If you can't hit center of mass in 8-10 feet, leave the gun at home and carry a knife. Don't carry anything you would object being shot with.
I suggest perusing this site:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
Based on actual, real world shootings, one shot stopping power with a .380 is in the 70% range.
For a 9mm, one shot stopping power is in the 80% range. For a 38 special 50-60%. 45s are all over the board. Is carrying a "Dirty Harry" hog leg with laser sights and two spare magazine for a 10% advantage worth it? Will you carry it at all?
You'll actually carry the .380 LCP in your back pocket 'cause it fits. The 1911 "I dunno. It's too friggin' hot today. I don't want to mess with it."
The stopping power of the .380 you actually carry is way better than the .45 you leave on the dresser at home.
For civilian concealed carry, the objective is to get out of trouble, NOT to arrest the bad guy. Staying out of the bad areas of town, making noise and running away safely counts for civilians. A .380 that you actually use may fill the bill. For cops who have to arrest someone and deal with gangbangers, maybe a bigger gun is warranted, but for a guy who's idea of a night out is bowling or dinner at Outback Streakhouse, I dunno.
Most police shooting happen within 8-10 feet. Most policemen who are shot are shot with their own gun (by accident or intentially). If you can't hit center of mass in 8-10 feet, leave the gun at home and carry a knife. Don't carry anything you would object being shot with.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
Except Bonds PPK was a .32 auto : )I think this guy would say, "It depends on the shot!" A .380 is quite sufficient....
KBintheSLC
Member
Considering that my pocket pistol is a Kel Tec .32acp, I guess I would feel perfectly comfortable packing a .380.
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