Some say a .380 isn;t enough

[doctorxring]

Tactics and Situational Awareness

.

I think a smaller round backed by good tactics will beat
larger arms with poor tactics most of the time.

That's what this Mexico LE's experience here showed. He was
evidently close, charged and and opened up in their faces like
a rampant tiger and it was over in a flash. He was cornered
with larger firepower and read the situation correctly. The
BG's fell to his tactics as much as his gun. They got sloppy,
and he prevailed.

My P380 is not my first choice, but I don't feel naked or weak
when I'm carrying it. And I try to pay attention.

dxr

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I think a smaller round backed by good tactics will beat
larger arms with poor tactics most of the time.....

....My P380 is not my first choice, but I don't feel naked or weak
when I'm carrying it. And I try to pay attention.

dxr

This is probably the most sensible and best statement I've read on this subject.

 

[Mayo]

Weevil---not necessarily. You could have 2 identical size pistols, height, length etc...which means both could be pocket carried. However, if the 9mm weighs .4-.5 oz more, the recoil could theoretically be the same. In that situation I go with the 9mm. Heck, in any situation I would take the 9mm over the .380 UNLESS I couldn't shoot the 9mm---haven't had that happen yet.

 

[NMGonzo]

No mention of helmets ... got them all in the head in close quarters or from behind?

Anyhow ... I carry whatever I can carry but color me lazy i carry my .380 keltec or the bersa most of the time.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Many here still miss the point of my posts.

The issue of .380 effectiveness lies in the proper selection of the ammunition. As popularity rises with .380 pistols, ammunition makers have also made more effective bullets.
Cor Bon 90 grain jacketed hollow points is one. Hornady makes a hollow point which will retain its shape and not fragment. As I stated earlier, if you use a .380 you want a large wound channel which causes the perp to bleed to put it bluntly. You don't want a round which causes the tissue to close on itself-plus, as I stated too, most defensive engagements will be 10 feet or less which means the perp will get the maximum foot per second velocity.

 

[North Bender]

These discussions have no end.

You want a "perp" who's "10 feet or less" away to "bleed out"?

 

[Phantom Captain]

To the point then...

I daily carry a .380 PPK/s loaded with the 102gr Rem. Golden Sabers. Of all the SD rounds I've tried I love the Golden Sabers best. I like that they are the heaviest commercial .380 bullets available. They feed without a hitch, everytime, and they are remarkably accurate and low flash. I practice with it a lot. More in the summer than winter but during the winter I go to the indoor range once every month or two and put 50-100 rounds through it. Summer is much more because I can shoot outside.

It carries comfortably and I have total confidence in it and my abilities. For me, that's enough.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

North Bender, you miss my point.

The selection of proper modern .380 ammunition is critical in maximizing .380 effectiveness. .380 ammunition has improved based on .380 demand.

A large wound channel is better than one that seals up because it causes more damage-especially to major organs. Its shock power is also increased.

So if you choose a .380 then also carefully choose the right ammunition.

Phantom Captain has got it.

 

[Weevil]

Weevil---not necessarily. You could have 2 identical size pistols, height, length etc...which means both could be pocket carried. However, if the 9mm weighs .4-.5 oz more, the recoil could theoretically be the same. In that situation I go with the 9mm. Heck, in any situation I would take the 9mm over the .380 UNLESS I couldn't shoot the 9mm---haven't had that happen yet.

Oh I guaratee that if there's only a 1/2 an ounce of difference in weight you'll definitetly be able to tell which one is the 9mm.

You're gonna have to add a lot more weight than .5 oz to make the 9 as easy to shoot and control as the same size .380.


There's just no easy way to get around the fact that the 9mm has more power and energy than a .380. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's physics and you can't change it.

You don't get something for nothing, the smaller and lighter the pistol the harder it is to control and shoot accurately during rapid fire, in any caliber and increasing the power of the round only makes it worse.

If you increase the power of the round you're shooting by using a larger caliber you will sacrifice control.

Oh sure you can make the pistol heavier or larger to soak up the added recoil but then you get back to why not use a smaller caliber so the pistol will be smaller and lighter and still have decent control.

Handguns are all a compromise between power and control.

It'd be great to have the power of a .500 S&W with the recoil of a .22 short in a pistol that'd fit in the watch pocket of your jeans but it just don't work that way.


We all have to find our own balance between the power of our caliber and our ability to control it in our chosen platform. Some people can shoot the wings off a fly with a snubnose .357 magnum and other people struggle to hit the broadside of a barn with a full-size .22.


Perhaps that's why there are so many calibers and guns to chose from, so we can all tailor them to our own needs and wants.

 

[Jaywalker]

Interesting article. It's also interesting that we accept it on face value, something we normally don't do for newspaper articles.

I'm not familiar with Mexican Law, but my understanding from the past was that it was "military" rounds that were forbidden, e.g. 9mm, .45, not something "more powerful than the .380." I recall the great popularity of the 38 Super in Mexico for that reason.

Also, just because a Mexican official reported the use of a 380 doesn't necessarily make it so. The guy could have used an M60 with AP rounds, policed his brass, and then scattered some 380 brass. He could have had three friends with AR-15s with him, sent them away, then offered an honorarium to the responding officers to ignore discrepancies.

Think about the likelihood of a guy with a single 380, and not a movie actor, canceling the tickets of three armored and heavily armed assailants. if he ambushed them outside, maybe, but when they were ready and coming in? I like the 380 as much as anyone, but I'm having some trouble with that one...

 

[kev778]

All I know is a .22 cal pistol or rifle will kill you dead just as much dead as .50 cal BMG. Just with less mess to clean up

So .380 by all means, but the ammo is more expensive than 9mm or .40 SW

 

[GRIZ22]

Sometimes the 380 will work as you relate and sometimes it won't. i know of an instance where a LEO was shot in the mouth with a 380, the bullet ricocheted off his teeth or roof of his mouth, went through his tongue and exited his chin, and lodged in the flesh on his chest. After he was hit he drew and returned fire killing his assailant.

 

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

who hear will allow me to shoot them with my .380?

i think that will answer the question just fine. yes there are more powerfull rounds, yes i usually carry a .40 or .45acp but while at work i can really only carry a P3AT in a pocket and still be concealed.

 

[Mayo]

[who hear will allow me to shoot them with my .380?
/QUOTE]

Who here would choose to be shot with a 9mm or a .380? Since a R9 is virtually the same as a P3at---how is it somebody(who has the means) would choose that over an R9?

 

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

price, weight, etc, etc. i used to have a PF9, sold it to my brother because at that time with the jab i had it allowed me to carry a full sized gun. the job i have now does not. i got a the P3AT basically for $50 so thats why i carry it now.

so i ask again, who would let me shoot them with my little .380? its not about price, or what else is out there, its about what you feel comfortable to carry.

 

[Hanshi]

When a NY cop won a gun battle with a much better armed bad guy, he was asked by a reporter if he felt at a disadvantage with his service revolver, he said, "shooting straight with a .38 beats giving jive with a .45".

 

[Mayo]

[i got a the P3AT basically for $50 so thats why i carry it now/QUOTE]

So it's because of money---which is fine. That said, if somebody offered you the choice of an R9 or P3at which would you(anybody) choose? They are virtually identical in size and weight so why go with a smaller caliber. Nobody would even want to get shot with a BB gun so the .380 question is moot.

 

[Doghandler]

Looks to me like the little .380 worked just fine in the original situation for whatever reason.

Some times it's those fast little sparky fellas you gotta watch out for.

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

I think you should use what ever you shoot best with. Practice is key. I personally think .380 would be sufficient if you know how to shoot it.

 

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

the P3AT honestly.

 

[Patriot1/3]

My back-up .380 is a reliable defensive weapon. 15rd mags with the Ranger Talons,has saved my life numerous times. Primary is the Glock 22 with the .357 barrel,talons as well.

 

[Weevil]

Since a R9 is virtually the same as a P3at---how is it somebody(who has the means) would choose that over an R9?

Have you ever shot an R9 or any other of the micro 9mm's???

These tiny pistols are absolutely brutal to shoot and follow-up shots are a joke.

Just because it's tiny and insanely priced that doesn't make it the ideal pistol.


Did you know that the R9 comes with an extra recoil spring because it's recommended you change the recoil spring every 100-200 rounds?

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/recoil-assy.htm


Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.

 

[CZguy]

Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.

I agree. I had real difficulty shooting my LCP accurately at first. Finally, after a bunch of practice I've got the hang of it. And I'm not new to shooting handguns. These small pocket pistols are difficult to shoot well.

For a 9mm (CCW) I prefer my CZ RAMI. It's a chunky lille thing, but I can shoot it really well. But I do have to carry it in an in the waistband holster. I guess it's all about compromises.

 

[straightshooter9]

I have no problem with a .380...........
I really had a hard decision, could have gone either way with a .380 OR 9mm :banghead:......I carry the 9mm, but wouldn't hesitate carrying a .380...........
I REALLY like some of the .380 pistols, like the Beretta 92FS.
Good ARMY "shot placement" training at the rifle range, I guess!

 

[David E]

if you use a .380 you want a large wound channel

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there !!!