.380 Shootout: Sig vs Sig vs Walther

[Redcoat3340]

I took my three .380s to the range today for a shootout. One is going to go, as we don't need three.

My original strategy was to get one for me (the Sig 230 for pocket carrt) and one for my wife (either a Walther PK380 or Sig 250 with a .22 conversion to learn the trigger on.)

But I had a bad day at the range last with the 230 so I decided to shoot all three in one session and put the loser on the block. I can pocket carry my Shield 2.0 and I have enough smaller guns for regular IWB carry.

Anyone want to buy a nice Sig 230?

Both the DA-only 250 and the Walther outshot it today. By a bunch. The other two had much softer recoils, the trigger on the 250, while DAO, is smooth as butter and the Walther in SA was crisp and just right. No problems feeding or ejecting with any of 'em.

I was really rooting for the Sig 230....it's looks PPish, the trigger is nice, the decocker is a plus and it's a Sig.

But I couldn't argue with results and my groups were tighter at 5 and 7 yards and both just felt "better." (I was talking with my smith about machining down the sharp edge on the right side of the trigger guard. For my hands, at least, it got to be an annoyance after a couple of mags, cutting in to my right middle finger.)

I've got my eye on a 9mm slide for the Sig 250 so we'll have .22, .380, and 9. It's a neat pistol, even if a lot of folks dump on it.

 

[hemiram]

My PP experience was just bad. It was so pretty, but was unreliable to the point I sent it back for service. It was better when it came back, but nowhere near the gun I had bought while it was away:
The Beretta made Browning BDA 380:

Followed soon by a used Beretta 84:

IMHO, these two guns are the kings of 380's. I have a Beretta 84BB and an 85F today.
The day after the Walther came back, it went into the consignment case at the gunstore near my house. It sold in like 2 days. I used the money to buy the barely used 84. Only thing I did to them was remove the magazine safety, which annoyed me.
I like the Sig P250, but not enough to look for one. It's way down towards the bottom of 9's to buy in the future, but if a good deal comes along, I will jump on it, if I have the $$$

 

[bannockburn]

hemiram

My experience with a stainless Walther PPKs was much like yours in that it was unreliable and poorly made. I also had both a Beretta Model 84 and Model 85. Great guns but they were somewhat large (at least to me), for concealed carry. Ended up using the the Model 84 for home defense for awhile before I traded it on something else and then did the same thing with the Model 85. Nowadays my .380 line-up consists of a Colt Mustang, a SIG P238, and a KelTec P3AT.

 

[Hasaf]

As it happened, I also took three of my .380 pistols out to the range yesterday. I took A Kimber Micro .380, a Glock 42, and a Walther PK380.

I shot best with the Kimber Micro. I suspect that is due to a combination of familiarity and the better sights. That being said, of the three, it clearly has the most noticeable recoil.

Second was the Walther PK380. It just came back from Walther for a problem. It appeard that they put a new slide on it. One of my main reason for putting the amount of ammo through it that I did was to check reliability with some different types of ammo. It shot very well; however with it I was practicing double to single action transitions. So I shot a lot of rapid two shot groups. It is an easy 380 to shoot well, having a longer sight distance and very little felt recoil.

I had replaced some of the springs in the Glock; so I was primarily testing for reliability. I have never been happy with the accuracy of the Glock 42. If there are any of mine that may be looking for a home, it is the Glock.

I am trying to decide which I prefer as a carry pistol, the Kimber or the Walther. I lean toward the Kimber due to size and familiarity.

 

[stevekozak]

I am a little surprised at these results. My Sig232 is the most accurate .380 I have ever shot. It fits my hand perfectly. My only gripe, ever, is the heel-based mag-release.

 

[huntsman]

^ I thought mine was very accurate also, more so than my BDA but the double action pull was excessive so it went and the BDA stayed.

OP that sig should be easy to move because like the guy at my LGS said everyone wants a sig they just can’t afford the big boys.

 

[If1HitU]

I shoot more accurate with my G 42 380 then with S&W M&P BG .380.

 

[Triggernosis]

I love my P232, as it is probably the classiest looking gun I own. But I don't necessarily shoot it accurately . I'm sure it's capable, but I just don't shoot it as well as I think I should.
I'm afraid to sell it, though, as they are no longer being made and I'd probably regret it .
BTW, the new Sig P365 is noticeably smaller than the P230/232.

 

[cc-hangfire]

Without meaning too, I’ve accumulated a .380 collection, and there is one thing I have learned that is not often noted as significant -
A. the blowback designs for even the heaviest and largest generate more felt recoil than you’d expect. And
B. The browning tilting barrel designs shoot softer than you’d expect for their sizes.

So I’m not surprised that you’d put the SIG P230 on the selling block if one has to go. For various reasons (history, looks, conceal-ability, etc) I love the PPK/S, CZ83, NAA Guardian, AMT Backup, & Mauser HSc Super but all are unpleasant to shoot for extended periods. The SIG P238, Walther PK380, and even the Kel Tec P3AT & Ruger LCP are softer shooters than those listed above. I can be accurate with them all, but I’m more likely to develop a flinch with the blowbacks.

(And I do want one of those Beretta 84 or 85 models; I expect they may be the ultimate .380)

 

[Triggernosis]

Without meaning too, I’ve accumulated a .380 collection, and there is one thing I have learned that is not often noted as significant -
A. the blowback designs for even the heaviest and largest generate more felt recoil than you’d expect. And
B. The browning tilting barrel designs shoot softer than you’d expect for their sizes.

So I’m not surprised that you’d put the SIG P230 on the selling block if one has to go. For various reasons (history, looks, conceal-ability, etc) I love the PPK/S, CZ83, NAA Guardian, AMT Backup, & Mauser HSc Super but all are unpleasant to shoot for extended periods. The SIG P238, Walther PK380, and even the Kel Tec P3AT & Ruger LCP are softer shooters than those listed above. I can be accurate with them all, but I’m more likely to develop a flinch with the blowbacks.

(And I do want one of those Beretta 84 or 85 models; I expect they may be the ultimate .380)

Oh hell, now you've got me wanting a Beretta 84!

 

[Redcoat3340]

Me too....so maybe I'll trade that 230 for a Beretta. But I think both the 84 and 85 are blowbacks....but perhaps with the extra weight that don't snap as much as the small Sig or PPK?

Anyone have any experience shooting them against a Sig 250 or the PK380?

I had a Beretta model 70 in .380 and didn't like it, so it went. That's when I decided to go locked breach, except for the Sig, which I bought pretty much 'cause it looks damn near perfect for a small gun.

 

[Triggernosis]

Redcoat, I'm pretty sure the Beretta 84/85's are locked breech - hence why they are so soft-shooting.

 

[huntsman]

^ no they’re straight blowback the only difference is the sig is a fixed barrel and the B’s aren’t.

 

[Triggernosis]

^ no they’re straight blowback the only difference is the sig is a fixed barrel and the B’s aren’t.

10-4. I honestly don't even understand all the differences.

 

[Tallball]

I have a few: Sig 230, CZ83, Russian commercial Makarov, Beretta 84, P3AT, and a Colt Government Model.

The heavy steel Colt fires from a locked breech and is a gentle shooter. The tiny P3AT beats my hand up. The CZ and Makarov are blowback, but the steel frames help. The Beretta and Sig have alloy frames, so they are a little bit snappy, but not too bad.

 

[golden]

Redcoat,

I have a SIG 230 and SIG 232. The 230 is a steel framed gun and the 232 is the base model with the alloy frame and an more ergonomic grip, also no fingergrips on this model. The 232 is easier to shoot, despite being lighter, because of the MUCH better grip. I can shoot the 232 as accurately as my SIG 225, so it works really well. I do not carry it, because it is just too large for pocket carry. In a holster, it is a real alternative to the 5 shoot .38. Mine has night sights, so it far superior for a night fight.

I had a BERETTA 84 and liked it a lot. It was probably more reliable than the SIG and is the most reliable blowback .32ACP (I also have a model 82) and .380ACP made. The large size and grip area make this a mild recoiling gun which is easy to grip and control. Try one of the micro .380's and then the BERETTA and it is night and day. I will probably buy a model 85 as I like shooting the BERETTA which also have excellent triggers and sights, but prefer the narrower grips of the single stack models. The newer guns also have a decocking feature that makes them worth the extra money over a used, older model.
If recoil becomes a really big issue for me as I get older, the SIG 232 will probably become my holster gun and the BERETTA 85 my house gun.

I have a CZ-82 in 9m.m. Makarov and think it is a very good gun with 2 weaknesses. The target shaped grips do nothing for the gun, in my opinion, but make it harder to reload and the lack of decocker makes the gun less safe. On the other hand, it is all steel and recoil is mild and the trigger and sights are fine. With different grips and a decocker, I might rate it equal or barely better than the BERETTA 84. At the bargain prices I have seen some of the CZ-83's going for, they may be the best bang for the buck in the .380ACP house gun.

I had a COLT Government Lightweight model .380ACP and while well made and accurate, the single action design made it impractical as a defensive gun and I sold it.

On the WALTHER pistols, I found that the PP and PPK/S recoiled harder than the smaller PPK. The PPK/S uses the longer grip frame of the PP with the shorter barrel and slide of the PPK to try and offer a more compact gun than the PP, which is large for a pocket gun. The squared off rear edge of the grip frame made the larger guns harder to shoot than the smaller PPK. The PPK has a rounded rear grip shape which I found much more comfortable to shoot than the larger gun.

For now, I carry a GLOCK 42 when I am off duty, which is a fantastic carry gun for me. It is very compact, light, reliable with a comfortable grip and good sights (not as big as the above two guns, but good enough).

Jim

 

[tbob38]

My wife has 2, a Colt Mustang (late model) pocketlite and a Glock 42. I never see her with the Glock, but she LOVES the Colt.


OOps, sorry. Neither Sig or Walther.

 

[hemiram]

My 85 was an impulse buy when the first surplus ones from Israel became available about a year and a half ago(??). I only saw one in person once about 1982. Mine was claimed to be in 85% condition, just as my surplus 84 was, but I would say both of them were more like in 90%. The 85 was about 50 bucks more than the 84 was, because of it's supposed rarity, but I see them all the time lately, in all kinds of shape from sad to "WOW!". A friend of mine got a "picked" one and it looks brand new, except the right grip has a little mark on it. A few minutes on Ebay took care of that.

 

[Redcoat3340]

Hmmmm....seems there's a new entry in the .380 market: the S&W M&P Shield 380 EZ.

Seems a Shield-sized .380 (size like the Sig 250 and PK380) but with a specially-designed, especially-easy to rack slide and a grip safety ala 1911s. Opinion on the S&W board it is targeted to women and us vintage shooters who might be having hand problems and can't rack a regular slide. Fortunately I'm not yet suffering that affliction but this might be just the thing for my wife who has some hand strength issues.

Anyone seen one in the wild yet? Or handled one? It's got me interested.