.380ACP vs .38special

[Alan Fud]

While waiting to pick up a perscription at the drug store, I flipped through a few gun rags and while I didn't have time to read the entire article, it seems that a .380ACP out of a short barrel is more effective than a .38special out of a short barrel. When you move into the 3" & 4" barrels, the .38special becomes clearly superior than the .380ACP but when talking about 2" barrels, the .380ACP is said to be better.

Anybody know anything about this?

Around the house and property (where I have relatively quick access to more effective firearms in more effective calibers), I carry a J-frame. Would I be better off with my PPK?

 

[Sunray]

Think physics. The .380 normally uses a 90ish grain bullet. The .38 Special a 148 grain plus bullet. Given the same velocity, just for sake of discussion, a heavier object will have more potential energy. IE. Drop a 5 pound brick on your foot, then a 1 pound brick on the other foot. Which one hurts more or does more damage?

 

[Alan Fud]

But because of the weight of the heavier object, it may not be able to obtain the same speed as the smaller object (it needs the longer barrel to obtain the same speed). Thus, I can throw a baseball faster than a bowling ball. From across a room, will the bowling ball it harder or will the baseball hit harder?

I can see both sides of the arguement and therefore, I don't know which side is correct.

 

[bpisler]

I don't think the 380 compares to the 38spl at
all.Cor-bons 90gr jhp for the 380 is listed at
1050fps from a 4" barrel.Buffalo bore lists a
158gr LSWCHP at 1000fps and a 125gr jhp at
1050fps,both from a 2" barrel.The 380 isn't
useless,the little Kel-tec is a handy package
when you can't carry anything bigger.

 

[Alan Fud]

I'm thinking for around the house and around the property carry where larger caliber and capacity guns are just inside the house.

I presently carry a 642 in a pocket holster -- five rounds of .38special and one speed loader in the watch pocket of my jeans.

I can just as easily carry my PPK in a pocket holster -- seven rounds of .380ACP with one spare mag.

Just curious what would be better. The 642 or the PPK. And again, we're talking about a weapon for around the house and property. When I go out, it's either a 229 in .40S&W or a 239 in .357Sig

 

[Frandy]

Around the house and property (where I have relatively quick access to more effective firearms in more effective calibers), I carry a J-frame. Would I be better off with my PPK?

Well, most here will elevate the .38 and hiss at the .380. Ballistics being the explanation. Fair enough.

But, I gotta tell you, I can shoot eight rounds of .380 from my Sig 232 faster and more accurately (and then reload another 7) than I can five .38s from my Smith 640. When I'm not able to have my preferred .45 with me, I feel just fine with my 232 and 15 rounds ready to go.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to be shot with multiple rounds of either.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Put 5 rounds in your PPK so you are on even footing with the 642. Then shoot them both as fast as you can while maintaining accaptable accuracy at whatever your precieved maximum distance is. Repeat, repeat, repeat, etc.

Before long you will notice a pattern. One gun will show a distinct edge in the speed and accuracy balance dept. You'll go faster with one than the other given the same accuracy requirements.

That's the one I'd carry.

 

[LightningJoe]

Ballistically, it's probably a wash. The value of the J-frame is concealability. Any automatic will give better capacity and ease of reloading. If the PPK is as carryable for you as the J-frame, you're likely better off with the spy gun if it's reliable.

 

[mainmech48]

While one can't totally ignore either side of the physics argument, I believe that projectile design needs to be factored-in when comparing raw numbers.

Modern HPs are the most consistent and effective performers in history. But assuming that advertised figures obtained from a pressure barrel fixture are going to be directly comparable to your weapon isn't very wise, IMHO. But then again, I have this problem accepting "deductive logic" as being universally applicable when it's been so often demonstrated as being the easiest way to reach the wrong conclusion with perfect confidence. Also just MO, but I believe that this can be encountered on either side of the physics argument.

In the specific case-in-point, diameter isn't really a factor as both projectiles are essentially equal at a nominal 0.355" and 0.357" respectively. In the event that velocities were to be the same, the equation would favor the one with the higher mass. In the event that the masses were equal, the one with the higher velocity would have the mathematical edge. That neither condition exists in fact sort of renders the whole comparison moot to me. If the HP doesn't open, they'll both make the same sized hole and penetration would be mostly determined by what and where it hits and if it runs into anything substantial during the trip.

Being a crusty old fart myself, I tend to favor Mas Ayoob's rationale to go with diameter, especially at this time of year. To paraphrase: Even the best HP may not expand after passing through several layers of clothing, especially if one or more happens to be made of leather and/or heavily padded turning the projectile, in effect, into flat-nosed ball. If that happens, I want the widest hole I can get.

 

[junyo]

Velocities won't be equal. Standard pressure, out of a two inch barrel the .380ACP bullet, being lighter, accelerates faster than the .38 Special and has more speed at the muzzle, about 200-250 fps according to results I've read, and making up the difference in KE (they're both at around 190-200 ft/lbs) and stopping power. As said, once the barrel length increases, and the .38 can take full advantage of it's case capacity/propellent, it has a clear edge. At P+ loadings, .38 Special runs away, jumping up into the 300 ft/lbs range.

 

[bjthejob]

If both projectiles have similar kinetic energy I would prefer the heavier one.

 

[moxie]

Stick with the 642. Use a good round like the

Rem Golden Saber 125gr. Better ballistics, simpler gun. More reliable.

See:http://www.ammobank.com/cgi-bin/csh...am&lpt=1161103105&xax=872869&item.ctx=:GS38SB

 

[MrAcheson]

I think this topic has come up before. Round for Round, I can't imagine a .380 beating .38 special in terminal ballistics even if the latter is fired from a snubby. The .38 has more weight and with hotter loadings it isn't moving that much slower.

But of course a round for round comparison is a bit flawed. .380s have more capacity and are often easier to shoot than a snubby. I would definite go with the gun you can shoot well before I would worry about terminal ballistics.

 

[Flopsy]

To supplement the discussion, I sometimes carry my Beretta 84F. It holds 13+1 and I can put all 14 rapidly into the 9 at 21 yards, so I'd definitely elect that over 5 rounds of .38.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Flopsy hit my situation. 84f vs. the detective special. Yes the dick special is slightly smaller but if I can carry the 84f I do. 14 rounds of 380 trumps 6 out of the detective special.

When I go very small I carry a Gov 380.

I think the key is accuracy and shot placement. I am more comfortable with the 84f then I am with the detective special or the gov 380 thus it is my favorite mini-gun.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, the Marshall Sanow stats make 'em more even than I have confidence in saying they are. I just have a whole lot more confidence in a 158 grain SWC HP or JHP at 270 ft lbs (good +P load) than in a 90 grain JHP at 190 ft lbs. Also, the .38 has a long record of effectiveness with the "FBI" or "Treasury" load, the above +P 158SWCHP.

I'll take my 9mm 115 grain JHP at 410 ft lbs over either, though, but I don't feel under-gunned with the .38 like I do with the .380. But, that's just me. The .380 has dispatched its fair share of individuals over the years. Thing about .380 is the tiny firearms like the Kel Tec P3AT that are built for it and how concealable they are. I can put my P11 or J frame in a large pocket, but I don't need a large pocket for a P3AT, any old pocket will conceal that thing. The PPK is a little dated, large for pocket carry. But, between your PPK and your J frame, me, I'd choose the .38 every day of the week + Sunday loaded with the FBI load. JMHO of course.

My pocket .380 is a 12 round Grendel P12 that shoots well and functions 100 percent, but I still prefer carrying a J frame with .38 +P. My 9 carries up to 13 (only got 10 round mags at present), though, and has more energy than either so that's my REAL choice among my carry guns. It's actually a little more compact than any J frame and shoots almost as accurate with a lot more firepower. There is no real comparison in .380 vs 9x19 +P except for diameter of the bullet. The 9 carries twice the energy with a heavier bullet to boot.

 

[enfield]

The key is penetration.

Not capacity, velocity, energy, expansion, etc.

Penetration.

.38 Special wins over any .380 load.

 

[Dollar An Hour]

Agree with enfield.

Penetration is key, and the heavier bullets available in .38+P have adequate penetration.

I have much more trust in a 158gr LSWCHP or Speer Gold Dot SB than *any* .380 load...

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, at those low levels of energy, perhaps, but it never hurts to have more of everything, energy, bullet weight, momentum, bullet sectional density, everything, the .38 beats the .380. I consider five rounds quite adequate in the .38. I want as quick a stop as possible. But, sometimes you just have to carry a little gun. That's what the .380 is all about to me, more'n a .25 or .32 and the same sized gun. The little NAA .380, P3AT, and similar sized guns aren't much bigger than a small .25 and pack a heck of a lot more punch. To me, I chose the most power for the sized package that is necessary for the day's schedule. There is a place for the .380 in my carry arsenal, but I carry more if I can, and the .38 is more even from a 2" barrel.

Actually, the FBI load is proven. It has a positive reputation in street shootings. That's what I care about even more'n energy OR penetration. Many police agencies have used it in many police shootings over the years. It is a service caliber. The .380 doesn't have such a record or reputation. Where it is carried as a service caliber, handguns are not taken so seriously, in Europe. And, now days, even the Europeans are abandoning it for the 9. On paper, it's my minimum, but I don't have a whole lot of confidence in it and really would rather be carrying a .38 revolver.

 

[joneb]

Well someone has been diggin up old bones again I see two key points in the replies, #1 shot placement and the 2nd penatration. I think the hollow piont is a waist of potential and much needed penatration with the calibers and platforms originally stated.

 

[Lonestar]

Regardless I can't hit jack squat with a .38 snub nose. My Kel Tec P3at is more accurate and easier to carry. Shot placement and having a gun is more inportant that penetration.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, if you can't hit with the gun, it's pretty much worthless to you. I find snubbies quite accurate, though, and do well shooting them. My problem with revolvers is my five thumb speedloader technique, main reason to prefer autos for me. But, the chance of having to make a reload around here is nil. When I go to the big city, I carry my P11 9mm in a pocket or my .45 IWB, both of which I can hit with, also.

My Kel Tec P11 is quite accurate, but my 2" snub is slightly more accurate. Both are great fun at the range. I like 'em both a lot. The snubbie is stainless/alloy and I like it for carry when I'm doing outdoor stuff. Occasionally, I just carry it because I want to. I could live without the P11, but I prefer living with it. The .380 is just for when nothing else is small enough. I have absolutely no desire to own a .380 the size of a PPK or larger. I'll carry a compact 9 instead, thanks. The G26, various Kahrs, the P11 and PF9, the Taurus Millenniums, there's plenty of 9s that are as or more compact than the PPK and larger .380s and they shoot a more effective service caliber. You can even get the G27 in .40 and the Kahr .40. I don't think the .45acp baby Taurus is much harder to carry IWB than a PPK.

JMHO of course, but I consider larger framed .380s undesirable and don't own one. If it's a .380, it'd better be a small one or I won't have any use for it.

 

[Soybomb]

Between my 642 and p3at, the .38spl is going to have the superior terminal ballistics on a per shot basis. I don't consider either good enough performers to use jhp's in either gun.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The key is penetration.

Not capacity, velocity, energy, expansion, etc.

Penetration.

.38 Special wins over any .380 load.

Exactly.

That said, the little Kel-Tec P3AT has made the .380 a viable option again. A Sig, Walther, Bersa, Mak or Beretta .380 have no size/weight advantage over a J-frame or similar (and only the Beretta 84/Browning BDA have significant capacity advantage). If it were between a J-frame and the larger .380's, I'll take the J-frame. But for maximum concealability, the P3AT beats damn near everything, and certainly anything packing equal or greater punch.

Given the nature of most defensive shootings, capacity of greater than 5 or 6 rounds is argumentative anyway. Most end in 1-4 shots being fired. Not that additional capacity is a bad thing; If all else is equal, I'll take the unit that holds more rounds. But I wouldn't make it my sole deciding factor.

 

[weregunner]

Just a side postscript. Documented story about a parolee who met his wife and her boyfriend at a bar. Mr. Parolee brought an ice pick with him for defense purposes just in case since wifys boy toy was known to be armed. Things got ugly at the meeting in the bar. Boy toy pulls out .380 Walther and shoots parolee once center of mass. Parolee snarls, pulls ice pick and stabs wife's boyfriend to death. Wife picks up dropped Walther and shoots hubby with one round expecting him to die,because conventional wisdom says so. Hubby attacks wife and kills her the same way as boyfriend. Then he walks and takes a bus to the hospital,gets treatment and survives. He is doing time for killing both people even though they tried to kill him first. Cons aren't supposed to do such things. .380ACP rounds were hardball. Hardball got the penetration desired and the guy shot survives. Pistols can be poor stoppers. Long guns are even better for terminating a fight. Nothing is 100%. There are .380 JHP and .38 special JHP or LSWCHP rounds out there that have excellent track records. Carry what you will, choose a proven load, and feel good about your choice. Liability is a big factor. Everything that one did in a justifiable shooting will be investigated thoroughly and every action will be put under a microscope. District attorneys,lawyers, forensics people, and juries will be scrutinizing closely all details. Things to think about and consider.