38spec/357mag handloading questions

[Hawken50]

I have some questions regarding handloading of 38 special / 357 mag. any input is greatly appricated and please feel free to correct me if i've gotten anything wrong.

1)i have a set of 3 lee dies in 357mag that came with the press i bought used. can these dies be used to reload 38 spc. as well?

2)it's my understanding that the 38sp began life as a blackpowder cartridge, and because of this there is alot of empty space. so can 38sp brass be loaded to 357mag specs? and conversly can 357mag brass be loaded down to 38sp specs? i guess what i'm getting at is aside from the slight diffrence in cases capacity, is the brass interchangeable?

3)what is the diffrence between roll and taper crimp? when should i do which one? is this done by the same die? should i crimp at all?

4)i'm getting an new model blackhawk (picking it up next week, man i can't wait) can i also fire 38sp +P?

thanks for the help.

 

[P95Carry]

1) Yes - the dies suit both - for 38 spl just crank the dies down approx 1/10".... to set up.

2) Indeed way back it was BP. You can load the 38 spl brass pretty hot for use in a .357 gun but - once you get ''up there'' you may as well make use of the longer .357 case anyways. Oh, forget whether base thickness is greater or not without checking.

.357 can be loaded way down but again if real light loads - use the shorter 38 spl case. The old fave of 2.7 - 2.8 of Bullseye behind a 158 does leave a loada space but they work - just don't double charge! So yeah - the brass is interchangeable pretty much but better to use the best for the job.

3) For this round a roll crimp is required tho with mild loads a modest crimp is all that is needed. A more obvious crimp is good on mag loads to hold bullet better from recoil displacement and keep hold a fraction as slower powder lights up. Taper crimp is generally for auto cases where the case headspaces the round. In real mild target 38 spl loads, case bullet hold after resizing can be enough such that no extra crimp really needed - thus prolonging case life.

4) The Blackhawk will be .357 mag proven - so anyhting less than that is fine - including of course +P but - if shooting a lotta 38 shorter cases be sure to clean chambers to remove the ring you'll get - so that .357's will chamber properly.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...can 38sp brass be loaded to 357mag specs? and conversly can 357mag brass be loaded down to 38sp specs? i guess what i'm getting at is aside from the slight diffrence in cases capacity, is the brass interchangeable?

Yep. I've been loading very light .38 special loads in .357 magnum cartridge cases for decades without the faintest indicator of a problem.

You could go the other way, too, but I wouldn't: some self-inflicted genius could put very hot-loaded .38 special loads in a .38 special revolver with disastrous results.

what is the diffrence between roll and taper crimp? when should i do which one? is this done by the same die? should i crimp at all?

Roll crimps are standard. The mouth of the cartridge case is rolled inward. Taper crimps are standard on most semi-automatic cartridges. The mouth of the case is gently pressed inward over a greater area. I've come to prefer tapered crimps for all my cartridges: less wear on the brass.

You probably wouldn't need to crimp extremely light wadcutter loads, since friction between bullet and cartridge case will hold the bullet in place; in all other cases, however, you need at least a slight crimp to keep bullets from walking forward under recoil.

i have a set of 3 lee dies in 357mag that came with the press i bought used. can these dies be used to reload 38 spc. as well?

Most probably. You'll have to adjust the seating die differently, as well as pay attention to case belling, (too much will split the case,) but there's only about a tenth of an inch difference between the two cartridges.

 

[Coltdriver]

Hawken 50 Said:

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I have some questions regarding handloading of 38 special / 357 mag. any input is greatly appricated and please feel free to correct me if i've gotten anything wrong.

1)i have a set of 3 lee dies in 357mag that came with the press i bought used. can these dies be used to reload 38 spc. as well?

You can use the .357 dies to load .38. In fact you may be able to find a spacer ring so that you can set the dies for .38 and put the ring under the seating die and have it right on for your .357 cartridges. I am sure Lee makes one, if not, any other makers spacer ring that works with the Lee Threading should do fine.

2)it's my understanding that the 38sp began life as a blackpowder cartridge, and because of this there is alot of empty space. so can 38sp brass be loaded to 357mag specs? and conversly can 357mag brass be loaded down to 38sp specs? i guess what i'm getting at is aside from the slight diffrence in cases capacity, is the brass interchangeable?

If you load .38 brass to .357 levels and shoot it from a .38 you will harm yourself, possibly kill yourself. Loading .38 brass to .357 levels and shooting it from your .357 is asking for a disaster if the overloaded .38 brass ever gets out of your control or gets inadvertently mixed up with normally loaded .38 brass. You can absolutely down load .357, however, follow the recommendations of a manual. It is possible to underload a pistol (or rifle) cartridge such that the primer unseats the bullet and the powder blows up the gun as it tries to press a stuck bullet on through the gun.

3)what is the diffrence between roll and taper crimp? when should i do which one? is this done by the same die? should i crimp at all?

I honestly do not know the difference in crimps and will watch the post to learn from some one else on this one. I do recommend that you seat and crimp in two steps. My experience is that I get better results doing this. Your mileage may vary of course. You should always crimp .38 and .357 loads. The recoil can cause an uncrimped bullet to jump forward and lock up your action.

4)i'm getting an new model blackhawk (picking it up next week, man i can't wait) can i also fire 38sp +P?

If your blackhawk is .357 you can shoot .38 +P. Understand that if you do this that you will very likely build up a crud ring in the cylinder. It is very important that you clean the crud ring out before you shoot any .357. Otherwise you will be forcing your .357 round past the crud in the cylinder, not a good idea and potentially hazardous.

 

[ACP230]

Hawken50:
My Lee dies are marked .38/.357, if I remember right.

Lawman and gunwriter Skeeter Skelton wrote about putting some .357 level loads in .38 cases. He had a case separate on firing at least once but said it was due to brass that had been reloaded once too often.
I prefer to keep .38 loads in .38 cases, so I won't put a .357 level load in a .38 Special gun by mistake.

Someone else should answer the crimp question, but I would definitely use one.

If your NM Blackhawk is a .357 you can use .38 Specials in it too.
I shoot a lot of .38 Specials in my .357s, including two Old Model .357 Magnum Blackhawks.

 

[Hawken50]

thanks guys. you've been a great help. i'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sounds like you have the hardware. Do you have a handloading manual and instructions for the equipment? If not, get 'em.

1. Lee dies are rated for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. It is largely a matter of adjusting the expanding and seating dies by .135" (Not "about 1/10 inch", not 1/8", there is a real number there.) The sizing die does not have to be adjusted for case length.

2. You should not load to magnum levels in Special brass. In the first place, how would you know what that was? The data is not published and seating depth makes a lot of difference in chamber pressure in straight walled cases. Yes, Elmer and Skeeter did it; but they blew up a gun every now and then and learned what they could get away with as to which guns would stand the overload and how much overload they could handle.
You can load magnums down to special velocity; something around half a grain more powder to get the same speed out of the magnum brass. Every once in a while somebody writes a magazine article about it and some manuals have light loads listed for magnum brass. Look under Cowboy data.

3. Roll crimp curls the case mouth into a groove in the bullet. Look at a factory load. A PROPERLY adjusted seating die will do it in one step for revolver ammo if standard grooved or cannelured bullets are used. Taper crimp just slightly squeezes in the case mouth against the side of a smooth bullet like most autopistol cartridges. The ony application I know of for a taper crimp in revolver ammo is if you use those @#$%^&* plated bullets with no crimp groove. That should be done in a separate step although Lee and RCBS will tell you their taper crimp seating dies can handle it. I doubt them.

4. A Blackhawk or any Magnum will handle .38 Special +P or +P+ easily; their pressures are much lower than .357 Magnum.

 

[Arch]

I stumbled upon this thread searching for something else.

I may have missed it, but noone seems to have mentioned the fact that the .357 magnum it NOT just a slightly lengthened .38 spl. The case walls do get progressivly thicker towards the base of the cartridge, much moreso than on the .38 spl.

The .357 magnum was designed as a high pressure cartridge. The .38 spl was not.

 

[Brian Williams]

Double check, The Lee dies I have marked 357 will only crimp on a 357, they must be 38/357 to do both...


Arch I beg to differ, The only thing I have been able to find is that they lengthened the 38 case to 357 length and not added to the case wall, I have a pic somewhere that shows a 357 caes and a 38 caes cut in half with no difference.

 

[Arch]

Brian Williams,

Might be a fun thing to saw a .38 and .357 case in half one day for a comparison.

I was fairly sure that the .357 brass was thicker towards the back, but I have never really looked into it, so it's quite possible I am wrong.

Could you please post that pic you have? I think it would be quite interesting to see...at least before one of us gets around to disecting a couple of cartridges.

Cheers.

 

[Sunray]

A .357 case is a .38 case, that's 1/10" longer. Nothing more. Mind you, some manufacturers may thicken the bases a wee bit, but not many.
If you're loading target loads, like the classic 2.7 grains of Bullseye with a 148 grain WC, no crimp is necessary. You really only need a crimp if the load is hot or the calibre is a heavy recoiling calibre. Crimping will work harden the case mouth and eventually they split.
A roll crimp is used on a case that does not headspace on the rim. The case mouth is literally rolled in a wee bit. A taper crimp is used on semi-auto cases that headspace on the case mouth. The case mouth is tapered a wee bit. It mostly just aids feeding in a semi-auto.

 

[rugerman]

A few years back when I was low on .357 brass I loaded some 38 cases with magnum loads, to keep them seperate I used a sharpie to blacken the primers to make them stand out , when fired the black primers are knocked out during reloading. The load turned out to be real accurate and I still use it in 38 brass. Using 38 brass limits powder volume so you can only go so fast before you have to go to .357 brass for max loads. rugerman

 

[anonanon]

Instead of cranking my dies for .38/357 (and for that matter .44 spl/magnum) back and forth, I found some washers that work. A tungsten carbide sizing die doesn't need any adjustment of course, but the expander and crimping die fit the magnum cases with the washer in and the special cases without. Using different bullets (such as wadcutters for the .38 and SWC for the .357) requires different settings of course, but if you're using the same bullet usign the washer means you don't have to fiddle with the stem setting.