38spl/S&B primers/light strikes?

[Axis II]

I loaded up 5 rounds of 125gr RNFP with 3.8gr of HP-38, starline brass and S&B small pistol primers. I fired 4 out of 5 tonight as #5 would not go off even after trying it again. Upon looking at all 5 rounds the primer is just barely dented. It looks like a very fine pin mark on all 5. I haven't fired the gun in a few years but remember I never had an issue with factory ammo or the few gold dot and golden sabers I put through it. I noticed priming on the press that the primers were a little grabby going in and they all looked seated fine. they are also flat unlike cci I usually use that are more raised looking. .

Could it be I seated them a little too much or the gun?

 

[Walkalong]

Doubtful you seated them too much. It is hard to seat a primer so hard it won't fire. You could however have seated them so little even a second strike didn't work. I suppose the gun needs a heavier spring, but I don't remember SB being one of the harder to set off primers, such as CCI.

 

[Axis II]

Doubtful you seated them too much. It is hard to seat a primer so hard it won't fire. You could however have seated them so little even a second strike didn't work. I suppose the gun needs a heavier spring, but I don't remember SB being one of the harder to set off primers, such as CCI.

Guns a S&W J frame 642 if that matters. At first I figured okay, maybe they aren't seated enough and then I seen the very small firing pin mark and said okay are these primers super hard, too deep and not getting a good hit? I've always used cci in the rifles and they had a crater from the firing pin. These are very fine needle like strikes. I will pull the bullet and reload some more and see if seating a little deeper doesn't fix it.

 

[.308 Norma]

maybe they aren't seated enough

In my experience, primers that aren't seated "enough" (that is clear to the bottom of the pocket) usually fire on the second strike. I've been told that's because some of the energy from the first strike is expended in driving the primer to the bottom of the pocket - where it should have been in the first place.
I'm guessing you have a problem with your gun, but it's just a guess because I've never even seen S&B primers in this part of the country. Maybe they are extra hard.

 

[Curator]

One of the issues with double action only revolvers is sometimes the primer strikes are a bit on the light side if the small pistol primers are on the hard side. My 642 has the same issue with CCI small pistol primers but is sure fire with Winchester SP primers. A compromise between trigger pull and firing pin strike is required to make these pistols easy to operate. My Wife's S&W 637-2 Air-weight will misfire on double action but fire every time when cocking the hammer and firing single action. Personally, I avoid ANTHING from S&B. When reloading for small double action revolvers look for sensitive over cheap.

 

[someguy2800]

Ive shot a couple thousand in 38 special with my sp101. I have the lightest hammer spring from Wolff in it and never had a misfire single our double action. The hammer spring is probably half the strength of stock.

 

[ReloaderFred]

You're not seating the primers completely. S&B primers are good quality, but their shape is flatter than domestic primers, and they have to be seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket, which means below flush. The problem is your seating method, not the gun.... If you don't set the anvil into the primer pellet, then the priming compound can't detonate. Properly seating them accomplishes this.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[RecoilRob]

I'll offer the possibility that perhaps some lube has gummed up the hammer fall a bit? The rounds that fired should have a decent mark on the primers, so if they look really light they might in fact BE light. If you haven't serviced the pistol recently it might be time to get in there and clean it up. Would be frustrating trying to modify the ammo to fix a gun problem if that should be the case. Do you have any factory ammo to try...just to compare the firing pin strike? If it looks good on factory ammo...then for sure it would seem to be the handloads for some reason. No experience with S&B primers so can't comment on them....but agree that some small carry guns just don't have a ton of excess energy in the hammer strike so this pairing might not be optimum.

 

[kerreckt]

Primers probably not seated well. S&B are good quality products. I would look at my process, if I were having this problem. It is not the primers, IMHO.

 

[Axis II]

Thanks guys! I pulled the bullet this morning and put the case back in the press and gave it a little shove to see if the primer was seated all the way. It felt like it seated a little deeper so tonight I'm just going to load the empty case and see if the primer goes off. I don't have any factory rounds but might be able to get 1-2 off a buddy and see what they do. My 9mm craters the primers and compared to the 38spl those cases look like a sewing needle was used to impact it. I also had a lot of soot on the cases and blow back so I'm thinking the load was a little light. Lyman calls for 3.8 start load, Hornady is around the 4gr mark for start loads and Hodgdon is at 3.8 for lead data. I used lead starting cause of them being plated bullets.

 

[egd]

I've shot several K of S&B spp in 9mm and no problems. Just ordered 5K more.
Nothing to do with primer strike, and I don't know about 38spl, but with a 124 gr bullet in 9mm I use 4.2 gr of W231/hp38, both plated and fmj. 3.8 seems very light.

 

[Axis II]

I've shot several K of S&B spp in 9mm and no problems. Just ordered 5K more.
Nothing to do with primer strike, and I don't know about 38spl, but with a 124 gr bullet in 9mm I use 4.2 gr of W231/hp38, both plated and fmj. 3.8 seems very light.

I thought the same as when i reloaded 100 extreme 9mm 124gr i ran them at 4.0-4.2gr per hodgdons. I figured 38spl would have been a little higher but i used hodgdons and lyman lead start just for the first 5 rounds. going to up it tonight to 4gr seeing how lead max is 4.8 per Hodgdon and might venture into some low/mid jacket data.

 

[Bang!]

I've shot a few thousand 38spl in the last month or two. All with S&B primers and functioned as expected. They're good primers. In trouble shooting (ha!) this problem I wouldn't second the quality of the primers.

Uberti 1873 SAA and Henry lever action. Both in 357 magnum.

 

[Axis II]

I tried 3 times to get that primer to go off just now and it won't. Seated it again and no go. Loading up 10-20rds tonight and see what they do tomorrow or Friday.

 

[Demi-human]

Statistically, that may be the only one you find in your life. Good luck with the rest.

 

[Curator]

Lots of "helpful" information here mostly from people NOT shooting a double action .38 special small frame revolver. Almost all small pistol primers will fire reliably in a 9mm semi auto. J-frame revolvers have some issues with certain primers when fired in double action mode. My S&W 642 experience is similar to his, but I don't use S&B primers. Since he can't thumb-cock his revolver (hammer-less design) he is forced to use the double action mode.I have several J-frame S&W revolvers both "traditional double action" and double action only. and most of the traditional double action will fire reliably in singles action mode but some of them DO have light primer-strike issues in double action mode. Compare apples to apples, not oranges and bananas. Colt has recently re-introduced the "Cobra" small frame .38 special revolver with both trigger and firing pin angle "improved" for more reliable ignition. They did not do this because there was NO PROBLEM. You think?

 

[Axis II]

anyone have another primer in mind that would be a little more sensitive if i have the same issue tonight? I have 20rds loaded for today to see what happens.

 

[straightshooterjake]

Federal primers are generally considered to be the softest. Some competition shooters use only Federal primers and have their guns set up with very light springs where no other primers will run reliably. For the most sensitive ignition, the primers need to be seated to the bottom of the primer pocket which will make them below flush with the back of the case.

If you want lots more information about causes of light strikes in revolvers, I have written a long article about working with the triggers in Smith & Wesson revolvers. The article has sections on the causes of misfires and on primer sensitivity.

The article is here:

Improving the trigger on Smith & Wesson Revolvers

The article is also discussed in this thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...wesson-revolver-triggers-please-review.817407

 

[Zendude]

I shoot alot of 38 special that I reload using S&B primers. I have experienced light strikes but in each case the problem turned out to be with the guns. One needed a new hammer spring and in another case the hammer spring was rubbing on the inside of the aftermarket Pachmayr grips that I installed.

 

[Axis II]

I shoot alot of 38 special that I reload using S&B primers. I have experienced light strikes but in each case the problem turned out to be with the guns. One needed a new hammer spring and in another case the hammer spring was rubbing on the inside of the aftermarket Pachmayr grips that I installed.

I just installed Hogue grips on mine before shooting it. Could this be the issue?

 

[Zendude]

I just installed Hogue grips on mine before shooting it. Could this be the issue?

In order to test it, I put the factory grips back on and ran my reloads through it to see if the light strikes still occurred or not.

 

[straightshooterjake]

Ohihunter2014, I think there may be a clue in your original post which I did not notice initially. Of course, it is difficult to diagnose these problems without having the gun in hand, but here are my thoughts.

You stated that the firing pin dents looked very small on the rounds which fired as well as on the round which misfired. The small dents on the fired rounds are unusual, and they may be a clue. Usually fired rounds show a substantial firing pin indent even if they were not hit hard. This effect occurs because when the round fires, the case presses back against the firing pin and the breach face with the full chamber pressure of the round. So the firing pin indent on fired rounds usually looks pretty large even if the strike really had just barely enough strength to ignite the round.

So I am wondering if the firing pin protrusion is at minimum spec and has always been just barely strong enough to work properly. In the past, S&W has made some short firing pins, so this is a possible problem.

On guns with a frame mount firing ping like the 642, it is easy to check the specs for the firing pin if you are comfortable opening the sideplate and you own a good set of calipers. Just take out the firing pin and check its overall length. The ideal length for S&W factory firing pins .495. If it is under .492, then replace it. The new factory firing pins I have bought in the last few years have been about .494 and are fine.

Regarding the changed grips, I think it is unlikely that the hogue grips are the cause of the problem; they are widely used, and their design makes them unlikely to interfere with the mainspring. However, I could not rule out that any recent change could be the cause of the issue. If the problem persists, you could put the previous grips back.

I might also suggest getting some commercial Remington UMC 38 special ammo to use for testing. The Remington primers are a bit harder than the primers in some other brands of 38 special. If a gun is reliable with UMC rounds, it usually does not have problems.

I also want to respond to a previous poster who suggested that double action only J-frames are generally prone to light strikes. I would vigorously disagree. I have only found J-frames to be unreliable if they have been messed with or are out of spec. J-frame revolvers which are in good shape will dependably ignite any ammo. I consider a revolver which is not reliable in double action to be a paperweight, and my J-frames are not paperweights.

Good luck on resolving your issue.

 

[Axis II]

well I loaded 15rds from 4gr HP-38 to 4.6grs and 14 out of 15 rounds went off. The primers on the ones that went off went from a large dent from the firing pin to the very light needle point I described above but they went off except one and it had the fine needle point dent. I will be posting some pics tomorrow because some of these primer look a little odd. some are flattened, some look normal and some look like they are cupping upwards. Hodgdon call for 4.8gr being max and the lower charges show the odd looking primers and all the rounds had very stout recoil.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have an S&W 642-1 that I bought new in 1999. A number of years, 5 to 7 or so, after I bought the gun, I started experiencing light primer strikes with a few no discharges here and there. This after a few years of the gun not being fired.

After some trouble shooting to try to determine the cause of the problem but never finding the actual cause or reliably duplicate the problem, I replaced the main spring and all is now well. Well, at least so far.

Just a single data point.

 

[Axis II]

Here is a couple of pics of the primers and also some nice targets too. Not bad IMO for a J frame 38. about 15ft away.

The shells with all green at 4gr HP38, half green is 4.2gr, star pattern is 4.4gr. I don't know if im not used to these primers but i think they look a little flat and some starting to back out.