.38wcf?

[Armored farmer]

Is anyone here on THR well versed in .38WCF?
I know nothing about this cartridge. I have a chance to buy a 1902 Win mod '92. How does this round compare to say...30-30?
Any insight on rifle or cartridge would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

This is actually a .40 loaded with a 180 gr. bullet at an anemic 1200fps. It's nowhere near as powerful as a .30-30. Good luck in finding ammo, it's very expensive too. It started out as a black powder ctg. for the 92 Winchester.

 

[rcmodel]

It doesn't.
It is a pistol caliber round first used in Winchester lever-action rifles, and then in Colt revolvers.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38-40_Winchester

It compares very closely with the modern .40 S&W hand gun cartridge.
They are fun, but nowhere close to 30-30 WIn rifle performance.

Also, Be aware that the old lever-actions like that often have had the muzzles worn smooth from 110 years of cleaning rod wear.

And the rest of the bore is likely black like a stovepipe from corrosive primers the first 50 years.

rc

 

[rehorne]

Also known as the 38-40 ctg. I don't have a lot of experience with the ctg. I used one for cowboy action shooting a short time with black powder. It was a hoot to shoot.

 

[Ron James]

The 38-40 Winchester or also known as the 38 Winchester, 155 Gr. at 1200 foot per second.. Current factory load ( if you can even find it, I don't know its availability ) 180 Gr pushed to 1,160 FPS. Old Cartridge {1874}, it is reported to be a better pistol cartridge than rifle.

 

[Don McDowell]

The 38wcf was originaly chambered in the 1873, Colt and S&W later chambered it in handguns. It is about the same as today's 10mm/40 handguns.
It is probably a better handgun than rifle cartridge by today's standards. But in its heyday was quite popular in both. It will cleanly take deer when loaded to its original levels, but today's factory loads are somewhat anemic.
It lends itself well to smokeless loading.
I have two handguns and 1 rifle and all 3 are accurate and fun to shoot.

 

[Speedo66]

It's a classic cartridge, as noted, it first appeared in the 1873 Winchester rifle. Colt later chambered a SSA revolver in it.

The 1892 action is a lot stronger than the '73, and can be loaded fairly hot with this cartridge. It's still a nice mild cartridge to shoot in a rifle, unlike a 30-30, there is very little recoil, and you can shoot it all day and still have a shoulder.

True, it's expensive to buy commercial loadings, but if you hand load, it's as cheap as any other pistol cartridge to load once you have some cases. There are many companies selling .401 180gr. lead bullets for it. It compares very closely with the .40 S&W.

With all the current interest in pistol caliber rifles, a vintage '92 in this cartridge is a find. I'd grab it. Much nicer to have the real deal rather than a replica. This rifle will hold it's value, and appreciate down the line.

 

[rcmodel]

If it still has a shootable bore left.

rc

 

[Don McDowell]

I'm still scrubbing junk out of the bore of this old Marlin, but that thing shoots just as good or better than brand new barrel.


Holding a magazine full of rounds on this little buff target offhand at 75 yds, is just a real hoot, and you can do it as long as you have ammo loaded.

 

[Armored farmer]

very interesting....thanks
I have heard of 38-40

 

[Speedo66]

If it still has a shootable bore left.

rc

I bought a Winchester 1873 in .38-40 about 10 years ago. Had no idea what it was.

I guess I got lucky, because I paid very little for it. The bore looks, how can I put it politely, disgusting. Dark, ragged, every negative word you can think of for a bore. You can barely see a faint hint of rifling. Yet, I can hit bowling pins with regularity at 60 yards, and makes a decent group at 25. This is shooting with 180gr. lead bullets from Missouri Bullets and low powered (5.5gr.) Trailboss reloads.

It's never going to win an accuracy contest, or a beauty contest for that matter, but still provides me with some pleasure. So I guess what I'm getting at is, regardless of what the bore looks like, it may still shoot well enough to put a smile on your face. Having a piece of history from 1889, despite the fact that it looks like it was ridden hard and put away wet, is still fun.

I say if it's not too expensive, go for it. Not every rifle has to be a tack driver. If necessary, it can always have a liner put in.

 

[Don McDowell]

Often times it's interesting how much of that "pitting" and dark bore, goes away after enough cleaning with good solvents, brush's and patches on a jag..
But as Speedo says, those nasty old rifle's might not deliver benchrest accuracy, but there's no way to put value on the hours of pleasure from shooting those old buggers.

 

[Bezoar]

nothing wrong with the 38-40. linebaugh shows a photo on his website of a 7.5 inchb arrelled one, and well he hunts with it.

 

[eastbank]

i load and shoot all the older winchester and marlin rifles. here is my winchester 1892 take down rifle and colt bisley in 38-40, both are proofed for smokeless factory loads. i load 180 cast lead bullets with 10grs unique for about 1000fps in the revolver and about 1400fps in the rifle. the colt has a very good shinny bore and the winchester has a ex bore. the colt will shoot a 5-6" group at 50yds and the rifle will shoot 2-3" groups at 100yds, both shot from a good rest. eastbank.

 

[goon]

I'd say some of this will depend on the actual rifle. The 38-40 isn't a smoking hot round, but it'd still be fun to shoot. If the rifle is in decent shape and at a reasonable price and you think you'd enjoy it, I'd say buy it.

 

[Flyin Brian]

I'm glad to see this thread pop up, as I recently found a Winchester 1892 and a Marlin 1889, both chambered in 38-40. I bought brass from starline and I have some dies on order. I'm wondering if I can load bullets I already have on hand for 40S&W or will I need something a few thousandths larger? I haven't slugged either one yet, but plan to this week.
FB

 

[Don McDowell]

.401 diameter is the place to start .403 isn't bad.
If those bullets you have don't have a cannelure on them it may present you with some problems.
Cast bullets from the RCBS 180 gr mould work fairly well.

 

[Armored farmer]

I wanted to chime in and say that I'm still kickin' around the idea of yet another set of dies, molds, and data.
I see others showing some interest in this caliber, so carry on please.

 

[goon]

I'm glad to see this thread pop up, as I recently found a Winchester 1892 and a Marlin 1889, both chambered in 38-40. I bought brass from starline and I have some dies on order. I'm wondering if I can load bullets I already have on hand for 40S&W or will I need something a few thousandths larger? I haven't slugged either one yet, but plan to this week.
FB

The thing you'll run into is without a crimp cannelure (which I'm pretty sure no .40 S&W bullet will have because auto cartridges headspace on the case mouth), you won't be able to put a good roll crimp on the rounds. The spring pressure on your loaded rounds from the magazine spring will probably cause bullet setback in your .38-40 rounds without a good crimp.

As far as the bore size, they're probably close enough. If they were all you could find, you could maybe try a few and single load them.

I think if I were trying 38-40, I'd look for something like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/14...-diameter-180-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-500

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/32...-diameter-180-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-500

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=80&category=5&secondary=22&keywords=

 

[Don McDowell]

Lack of roll crimp can be offset by using powder that takes most of the available space in the case.4759, 5744,4198 etc, but don't try it with trailboss as that stuff does not behave well when compressed and the little donuts get broke.

 

[Speedo66]

I use the Missouri Bullets along with the Lee Factory Crimp die and they work well together. It crimps the case mouth into the groove. They feed perfectly through my original '73 and don't seem to stress the case mouths.

With the price of .38-40 brass, that's not something you want to do.

 

[Float Pilot]

I shoot an original 1892 in 38WCF. It was actually fairly accurate until I made the mistake of cleaning the lead out of the barrel. That un-clogged all the pits.
I have used HS-6, Trail Boss, FFg Black Powder, Pyrodex, 777, Unique , 4759, 5744 and Universal.

The HS-6 and HP-38 loads were actually the most accurate, the Unique were the fastest.
Now that I over cleaned the bore, I find that 155 grain jacketed bullets loaded to around 980 fps are super accurate.

Load info on the photo

 

[Don McDowell]

Nice shooting. I have a bunch of 231 powder, your group makes me think to give it a try in the 38 wcf

 

[Float Pilot]

Before I cleaned the old copper and lead out of all the pits in the bore, it would shoot soft lead like that as well.

I even tried some super soft slugs from Iron Pony bullets and they worked ok, but nothing like this.

Oddly enough the heavier 180 grain 10mm slugs did not group worth a darn.

My theory is that my rifling is so worn and pitted that the heavier slugs skid down the bore before they start to turn... BUT the lighter slugs start to turn right away so the bullet stabilizes and is not deformed.

DARDAS will size bullets to your request.

I have a bunch of these 40 caliber Nevada bullets. Here is one I greased and pounded down my bore sitting next to a virgin bullet.

 

[Float Pilot]

38 WCF (38-40 Win)

1892 WIn, 24 inch lightly pitted bore. Tang peep
Star-line brass, old CCI-300 primers
1.587 col, roll crimp, Temp 11 F, light wind, 52 yards


180 grain Nevada cast bullets at .400 cal. one lube band.

10.0 grains Unique. = 1,472 fps and a 5 in grp lead in bore, TOO HOT for a black powder era rifle.

28.0 grains Goex FFFg Clear Shot. = 1,070 fps. Very clean brass, 4 inch group

7.0 grains IMR 800X= 1,074 fps and a 3 inch group. Very clean brass. No pressure signs

7.0 grains Hodgdon Universal = 982 fps. 1,5 inch Good Group

6.5 grains TRAIL BOSS = 1.073 fps. And a 5 inch group. very dirty.

180 grain Magma Mold, one grease band .403 sized

8.0 gr IMR-800x,,,, = 1,228 fps and a 2.6 inch group
6.8gr HP-38,,,,,,,,,, = 1,134 fps and a 3.2 inch group
6.9gr HP-38,,,,,,,,,, = 1,158 fps and a 3.0 inch group
8.0gr Herco (old),,, = 1,165 fps and a 3.5 inch vert string group
8.0gr Universal,,,,, = 1,170 fps and a 3.2 inch vert string group
8.0gr Unique (old) = 1,182 fps and a 2.9 inch group

29.0gr Goex Clear Shot= 960 fps and a huge group. *CCI mag primer, very dirty.

Jacketed Bullets at 50 yards

6.8gr HP-38, 180gr Speer FMJ, Star-line, CCI-300, 1.588col= 823 fps and 6.0 in grp, dirty

7.0gr HP-38, 155gr XTP-HP, Star-line,CCI-300, 1,588 col = 985 fps and a 0.75 in grp, dirty

11.2gr AA-7, 155gr XTP-HP, Star-line, cci-300, 1.588 col = 1,000fps and a 2.75 in grp, very dirty