4 year old finds gun, shoots brother

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Jdude

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Copied, without permission, from Associated Press
Police: Boy accidentally shoots younger brother in thigh
(AP)
State police in Indiana County say a 4-year-old boy accidentally shot his younger brother in the thigh with a handgun.
Police say the family was moving and the boys found the loaded gun in a box at their Plumville home. The shooting happened about 2:45 p.m. Thursday.
The 2-year-old's injuries aren't life threatening. He's been taken to a hospital for treatment.
Police say they won't file charges.

//Article ends. Jdude Begins.//

We live in an armed society. Often, those of us who own guns, have children. The question then becomes "How do we protect our children from things that they are to young to understand the danger of?" Children learn from what they see. They learn from sesame street how to count to 13, and they learn from movie night that guns go bang. What is not taught to them is the real pain and suffering that is involved. A guy gets shot on tv, and 2 seconds later they are seeing something else. The corpse just fades away.

The problem here is not the television. The problem is that children, being who they are, simply do dumb things. Parents must lock up the anti-freeze so that children don't drink the cool-aid flavored poison. Firearms cannot be left alone, unattended.

How do we apply this to our guns? For starters, there must be a child proof method of preventing the device from being fired. A trigger lock, locking barrel cable, or safe would do all of these things well. The locking devices cost less than 20 dollars. If you can't afford that, which is less than a box of ammo, you can run a bike chain through the magazine well in your pistols. You can remove the bolt from your rifles.

The second possibility is to limit access to the guns. While your children are still in the crawl phase, the top of the closet would probably work very well. Once they learn how to walk and climb, you will probably need to get a locking case, safe or box. Little children are like little monkeys. They are very curious and very good at getting into places they should not be in. A key lock box or a digital number lock box would challenge even the most precocious youngster.

The third possibility is to sell your guns. This may seem wrong to many of you out there. But if you cannot afford the few dollars for a safe or a lock device, you probably cannot afford formula or pb&j. That would mean you have more serious problems than what any gun of any kind can solve.

A concern is that when a person needs a gun, having a lock on it will make it too hard to use. I think that this is incorrect. Most gun locks can be removed in less than a minute. Digital safes can be opened in seconds with the proper code. As a side note, think about your children. None of them were born with a doctorate in physics. Like all children, they were born stupid. The likelihood of your children doing stupid things is exceptionally higher than a break in. Play the odds here. Get a digital safe, accept those few extra seconds you need to stop a bad guy.

Once you have chosen your method of protecting your children, you must educate them. The NRA's Eddie Eagle program, which emphasizes "Stop! Don't touch! Tell an adult!" and constant reinforcement of this lesson will help keep your children safe. When they are old enough to understand, taking them shooting will enhance this education with reality which will cement gun safety firmly in their minds, forever. So long as the parent acts in a responsible manner, your child will also.

Protect your kids. Lock your guns.
Jdude, The Unstoppable Madman

Edited: put in paragraphs
 
Technology as reached the point where there's no reason not to have a gun safe. If you've got a lot of guns, there are safes of varying sizes, all that can keep out children. And if you need a gun by your bed, there are safes that can be opened in less than a second in the dark using finger taps as the combination, also childproof. Anyone who has children NEEDS to have the surest way they can find to keep their guns away from them. And there are plenty of options out there. Any lack of safe storage is laziness and negligence on the part of the parent. The old "gun in a shoebox on the top shelf of the closet" is just not acceptable.

Also, teaching, while great, is not an acceptable substitute for physical security. It doesn't matter that you may take your kid shooting every week for years. They are still kids and are still mischievous. And even if your kids are as responsible with guns as Massad Ayoob, do you ever plan on having their friends in your house? I can guarantee the friends parents didn't teach their kids about your guns. A physical barrier between them and the guns that they cannot break is a must, plain and simple.
 
How do we apply this to our guns? For starters, there must be a child proof method of preventing the device from being fired. A trigger lock, locking barrel cable, or safe would do all of these things well. The locking devices cost less than 20 dollars. If you can't afford that, which is less than a box of ammo, you can run a bike chain through the magazine well in your pistols. You can remove the bolt from your rifles.

Don't like this one. In the event a sidearm needs to be used then a cable lock or trigger lock is a bad bad idea. Removing bolt from rifle though I do pretty much anyways while it is in storage.

The safest place to store a handgun is always on your hip in a retention holster.

The second possibility is to limit access to the guns. While your children are still in the crawl phase, the top of the closet would probably work very well. Once they learn how to walk and climb, you will probably need to get a locking case, safe or box. Little children are like little monkeys. They are very curious and very good at getting into places they should not be in. A key lock box or a digital number lock box would challenge even the most precocious youngster.

Yes. We childproof our electric outlets and put chemicals out of reach of children or locked up. Of course guns should be the same. They are also faster (digital number lock box) to access then a cable or trigger lock in an emergency.

The third possibility is to sell your guns. This may seem wrong to many of you out there. But if you cannot afford the few dollars for a safe or a lock device, you probably cannot afford formula or pb&j. That would mean you have more serious problems than what any gun of any kind can solve.

Oh hell no. Gonna tell me to sell my car to prevent my kid from being run over because children have more chance of that then getting accidentally shot by a firearm. Not only that selling my guns leaves my family completely defenseless.
 
"Most gun locks can be removed in less than a minute."

Quick, let me move to an area where criminals will always give me a minute's notice.
 
This is a tragic and sad event, unfortunatley I think you have one very basic concept wrong. As a gun owner and parent of 3 under 7 years in age I think I can comment.

Kids are not born stupid! This is where most parents lose control because they have this attitude.

Why not educate your children for their protection?

Your comment is backwards,
Once you have chosen your method of protecting your children, you must educate them
what you are suggesting is that we all live in ranch style homes without stairs, lock all the cupboards, plug the outlets with something plastic and not allow any climbing, playing with sticks, not to mention lock up what is going to protect them the most.

This is already a major part of our society which saddens me. I have friends who travel with the outlet protectors to put in the hotel room outlets because they have not educated their child that playing with outlets leads to consequences.
 
I think i need to explain that I have no children. I sat and thought for a while and tried to come up with the best way to protect the little guys from our guns. For the occasional time that people with children visit me, I lock the bedroom door with a key lock, the same kind that is in a front door. I opened this topic hoping to share and receive some knowledge to protect the children. Thanks for everyone who posted.

Jdude
 
Technology as reached the point where there's no reason not to have a gun safe.
Unless you can not afford one.
And if you need a gun by your bed, there are safes that can be opened in less than a second in the dark using finger taps as the combination, also childproof
Um there was just a shooting the other day close to where I live where a kid randomly figured the code out
Any lack of safe storage is laziness and negligence on the part of the parent.
Well I can certianly agree with this
The old "gun in a shoebox on the top shelf of the closet" is just not acceptable.
I will disagree with this though. For kids that do not posess the know how to reach that area its fine say 0-3 years old after that they start getting crafty.
Also, teaching, while great, is not an acceptable substitute for physical security. It doesn't matter that you may take your kid shooting every week for years. They are still kids and are still mischievous. And even if your kids are as responsible with guns as Massad Ayoob, do you ever plan on having their friends in your house? I can guarantee the friends parents didn't teach their kids about your guns. A physical barrier between them and the guns that they cannot break is a must, plain and simple.
Um there are a lot of asumeptions here.
Although my daughter is aproching 2 and I do not keep guns out in the open they are not accessable to her so they are safe as is she. I fully realize times are diffrent now then when I grew up but still is certian conditions a child can grow up like I did. Guns in every corner of the house no ammo to be found though. I never really messed around with them as I was shooting them on most weekends spending my allowance on ammo.
For some kids like most of my cousins that still live in the"country" its an issue of curiousity. If you take them out and show them what it does and how it works they will leave it alone. Again it doesnt work for every one but it does for some. I will not be taking that chance with my daughter as I live in the city and it is diffrent than living in the country. But again blanket statements just do not work with much this subject included. Just my oponion.
 
Unfortunate, but keep in mind that they were moving. That isn't an every day occurance so it's somewhat understandable that the parents weren't totally prepared. I'm not looking to make any excuses for them, but the problems encountered when trying to keep your kids our of your booze/guns/ammo/fragile knick-nacks/those pictures of mommy that they shouldn't see etc. are complicated when moving.

In my opinion the only thing that can be learned from this is to not let your children assist in moving unless you live a Nerf Life. Which, in all honesty, probably isn't all that bad of an idea.
 
don't be a lazy linker! or cut and paster!

links and story or you will have to clean the rentals at the indoor range.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/14734713/detail.html

Police said the pair found a gun in their Main Street house in Plumville.

Their mother was in another room on the phone, officials told Channel 11.

The two children wandered into the bedroom and found the gun in a holster under the bed.

The bullet went through the boy's calf muscle. He was taken to Children’s Hospital, where officials said he is expected to recover.

No charges are being filed because police said the shooting was an accident.
 
Technology as reached the point where there's no reason not to have a gun safe.

Well, except..
#1: Gun safes are expensive. It COULD be said that as a responsible parent you should consider not to have firearms unless you can also afford the cost of proper gun storage. BUT.. if you were to say that, then should a parent not a own a gun to protect their family becasue they can afford only an inexpensive gun and no safe ?

#2: A LOT of people do not own their established living arrangement. How many people rent ? It is not viable to install a full size gun safe in an apartment setting. A locking gun cabinet may be the best an apartment dweller can do. Should people who live in apartments not be allowed to own firearms ?

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not defending these foolish parents who allowed this, I'm speaking purely in response to the gun safe issue.The statement seems a bit elitest.

I don't have children, if I did every gun besides the one on my hip would have a lock on it.
 
Gun safes are still rather expensive. I know I certainly couldn't afford one.

That said, there really isn't any excuse for not at least keeping an action or trigger lock on whatever you've got lying around. Heck, my FFL gives me a cable lock for free if I even transfer a gun through him. Whether I want it or not.

Accidents happen. Should the driver who gets into a car accident be banned from ever driving again? Of course not. Even the most careful among us will make the occasional slip up. I'd say we should be grateful that this accident wasn't fatal, learn from it, and move on.
 
i don't think there's any reason these days for a kid to get shot by a gun in the home. if you're not wearing it, it should be locked up. if you're not responsible enough to do so, you shouldn't own a gun. period.
 
Only because I like to argue at midnight

if you're not responsible enough to do so, you shouldn't own a gun. period
So are you saying that a gun safe should be a pre qualifier to buy a gun? Where should that box be located on the forms so you can check it? :banghead:
Ok back to reality I still have to disagree with locking guns up as a blanket statement. It is necessary in most cases sure but not all.
Laws are more likely to protect the stupid and not so responsible types.
In my last house it was far easier to lock up ammo than the guns and keeping guns out of reach was more practical than putting them in a safe. But then again my last house was a boat and I did not have a child then either.
While I am at it I read in a safety article at work and I am still looking for it that as a whole kids are more likely to be electricuted than shot so with this is it neglegent if you do not turn the power off in your house? You never hear too much about that Also SIDS cases out weigh shooting death of childern but there is no big push to educate parents on prevention of this either. "the childern" is an over used excuse that I am so tired of hearing. But I must agree that in most cases kids and guns just dont go together too often.
 
i never said to keep them locked up at all times; like someone said, even locks aren't 100% kid proof. i have 4 kids from 12 to 5, and there's no chance they'll ever be shot with one of my guns. why? because i don't leave them where they can get to them. the only firearm that stays home with my g/f is the shotgun and one handgun; the shottie has a triggerlock, and we have the only keys to it, which stays on our keychains, which don't leave our pockets. the shells are kept seperate from the 'gauge, except at night. the pistol is in my toolbox, which i have the only key to, and it stays locked in my room. i carry my two other guns with me all day, every day. i go through this nonsense to keep my family safe. i practice responsible gun ownership.

if i were a bachelor, living on my own, i'd keep guns on the kitchen table, on the tv, behind the toilet, in my microwave, on my headboard. if there's no risk of kids getting shot, then there's no need to lock them up, except from theft. like i said before, i think if you carry a gun, you should take it seriously, and carry whenever possible. if you can't, for whatever reason, and there are children present, they should be kept in a safe condition, until you put them back on.
 
ok at this point I must say that the start of my last post I was just kidding around and being sarcastic SORRY but the rest was on a serious note no offence to any one really
 
Tragic event and I would place the blame completely on the parents, end of story.

I don't have children, if I did every gun besides the one on my hip would have a lock on it.
I'm with you completely on this.

Gun safes are expensive, but with young children in your home its a small investment that could prevent a tragedy such as this. I'm sure in retrospect any parent would pay any price if it meant saving their childs life.
 
Yes, true gunsafes are expensive - but your guns can be locked in one of the inexpensive stack-on type lockboxes. I picked one up for just under $100 - one of the first things we bought when we found out my wife was pregnant. Under the bed in a holster is grossly negligent.
 
I have guns. More than a few. Many are kept loaded but not chambered within my household with no safe or gunlocks preventing their use.

I have kids. Ages currently from nine to fourteen.

Only the oldest one will touch a gun without my express permission. The oldest one shoots with me on a regular basis, has hs hunter safety card, and knows the rules. I trust him to use his own judgement, under a very narrow set of circumstances , augmented by years of my close supervision, if he needs to break out a weapon to protect the homestead.

The other children have been raised as I was. You do not ever touch daddy's rifles without permission. Doing so will result in drastic consequences so dire as not to be named. this has been the rule for quite a few years.

I would not ever touch my dad's guns growing up without permission and him being present, neither will my kids.

While very young children do present a problem in this matter, older children can take training very well if the gun owner is willing to put in the time and effort.

A crafty kid can defeat quite a few safety devices to prevent him from using a firearm. He is far less likely to defeat his own fear of touching a weapon without parental supervision. It may be something to think about, if you are not willing to train your kids about firearms, you do not need them in the house.
 
tmajors said:
The safest place to store a handgun is always on your hip in a retention holster.

I couldn't agree with this more. The original poster's "alternatives" to ready storage are all completely incompatible when using a firearm for potential defensive use. The only suggestion which comes close is "limit access", and the proper way to "limit access" is by keeping the pistol on your person; I'd go further to recommend, just like tmajors, that it be in a good-quality holster which covers and protects the trigger.


Jdude said:
Most gun locks can be removed in less than a minute. Digital safes can be opened in seconds with the proper code.

I've said this many, many times before. With the VAST majority of residential houses, if someone is going to forcibly enter the house, you have two seconds warning from the time the sound of the boot kicking the door is heard until that same boot is standing on the carpet of your living room. Digital safes aren't fast enough. Even if you were standing right next to a finger push-button quick-access safe, that still may not give you enough notice.

If a person wishes to keep a firearm handy for defensive use, the best place for it is on that person's body.
 
yes nanny

I told myself to leave well enough alone and not reply to this thread but I just can't seem to help myself.

I have guns and I have kids.

I'm not going to say how I secure my guns or how I educate my kids because I don't think that is anybodies business but mine and my wifes. I don't like it when the state mandates how I raise my children and I don't like it when you do it either.

If something should happen to one of my children through my own carelessness or negligence, I guarantee you there is not a punishment in the world that will be worse than simply knowing that and taking responsibility for it.

Now if a parent doesn't have that sense of responsibility and caring towards their children then no advice and no law will make any difference.

There are lots of tragic stories about kids and guns, but I don't think that relating them here in some cautionary tale to stir up emotions is a very effective method to change things. If you really want to do something proactive, I would suggest that you do some real research on how you can make children more safe around guns, then make yourself available to parents that would like that information.

With that last statement in mind, remember that there is no one solution that will fit every situation in even well defined circumstances let alone something as broad as this topic. I would appreciate it if you kept your square peg out of my round hole, even if you do have a hammer.
 
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Even a cheapo $15 lockbox from Walmart would work for handguns! Plus the obvious, WHY place a LOADED gun in a moving box? Very idiotic.

There are even faster biometric safes out now that work off your fingerprint (Gunvault). Not a true safe, but you can get locking cabinets for long guns, for under $100 at sporting goods stores like Dicks.

If you can afford the gun and ammo, you can afford some kind of safe! I have 4.
 
lock up the anti-freeze so that children don't drink the cool-aid flavored poison.

I think everybody is missing the most important part of this story!
where do I line up for the class action against Prestone for making kool-aid flavored antifreeze?
 
Again, having no kids, all I have done was sit for a bit and come up with some ideas. Honestly, putting it in a holster on a hip never occured to me, even though that is the way I carry. Now that I think about it, it does seem that it can be done safely.


Weedwacker, can you quote a source on the two seconds? I have not heard that before.
 
Gun safes are still rather expensive. I know I certainly couldn't afford one.
If you can afford another gun, you can afford a reasonably good "safe" to keep them in. It only needs to be child proof. It does not have to stand up to a safecracker.
 
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