REAPER4206969
Member
You have chosen; poorly.
.40 ammo question.
- Thread starter DasFriek
- Start date
- Status
If i buy some DT it will be the 180gr as the added punch would make up for the shorter barrel. Altho that 150gr has some serious numbers that go along with it.
I still prefer to carry my 1911, Just not in this warm spring and upcoming summer. And i also like the flat recoil of the 1911 and the .45acp.
But i can still control a .40 well and have a few extra rounds on me just in case. It is snappier, My 1911 is very flat recoil wise with a #22 spring in it.
But when push comes to shove it will take a forensics specialist to possibly even tell what made that big hole in the BD if i ever needed to use my weapon.
Ill be honest here and just state i wont and never would carry a 9mm caliber gun as my main ccw carry. Nor would i carry a FMJ in anything unless it was under a .380
Just because NATO uses 9mm FMJ a soldiers main weapon is a rifle and i think very few EVER want to use their secondary handgun.
We didn't win no wars with FMJ or HP, If we won a war it was with a rifle before ANY handgun.
I still prefer to carry my 1911, Just not in this warm spring and upcoming summer. And i also like the flat recoil of the 1911 and the .45acp.
But i can still control a .40 well and have a few extra rounds on me just in case. It is snappier, My 1911 is very flat recoil wise with a #22 spring in it.
But when push comes to shove it will take a forensics specialist to possibly even tell what made that big hole in the BD if i ever needed to use my weapon.
Ill be honest here and just state i wont and never would carry a 9mm caliber gun as my main ccw carry. Nor would i carry a FMJ in anything unless it was under a .380
Just because NATO uses 9mm FMJ a soldiers main weapon is a rifle and i think very few EVER want to use their secondary handgun.
We didn't win no wars with FMJ or HP, If we won a war it was with a rifle before ANY handgun.
REAPER4206969
Member
So you think a 1911 is an antique, yet you carry crappy FMJ range ammo?
REAPER4206969
Member
Yes it is.
Sure, but I'll shoot you back with some PDX1.
Which was the best available at the time. He took a cyanide tablet too.
That's not how handgun bullets wound. FMJ will leave a small, self sealing wound channel.
Are you familiar with internal hemorrhaging?
Skylerbone
Member
Put it to bed guys! The point is not a body count between FMJ and HP ammo, you may as well be counting musket balls and tell him to shoot lead for its "killed more men than any other" factor.
The point to consider is that hollow points were meant to inflict damage with controlled expansion. That expansion is two-fold in purpose: enlarge the wound channel and dump stored energy into the target. Why is that important? Anyone? To cause damage to the intended AND ONLY the intended. Carrying a pistol does not give you the right to use it in any manner you see fit. It also, most assuredly does not give you the right to inflict collateral damage to others who may be BEHIND your intended target. That is why the rangemaster does not allow people to wander down range when the line is hot. While you know you're aiming at your target, he doesn't know how good your aim is.
That being said, every cartridge has an intended purpose. Do not doubt or rethink its ability to "put a man down". Read what the manufacturer has to say about it beyond the ballistic chart. Hornady TAP for instance is meant for penetration...of mild steel. Hornady Critical Defense is meant for penetration of humans without clogging or deforming when it hits fabrics (like clothing, in case your assailant isn't nude).
Yes, a chronograph is helpful, even more so if you load your own. I've got one and have owned one for nearly two decades. They're cheap, accurate and can provide some peace of mind when determining whether or not a round will do what it is purported to.
Lastly, does anyone ever really think about what they post on the internet these days? Calling yourself "man killer" or "rightous angel" and asking what works best in your third back up mag will not likely remain anonymous if you jerk that pistol and shoot someone. One day at a police forensics lab and a prosecutor or "wrongful death" attorney will have you seeing bars and or your family eating at a soup kitchen. So practice a little restraint here, we are already characterized by the media as "gun totin thugs". Imagine if they did a nightly news story on some of the above postings.
Part II
Any of the aforementioned ammo should work fine for the majority of self-defense situations. Be conscious of your surroundings and what you're likely to encounter. If TAP is what you think you need then load a magazine with it. Keep another loaded with Winchester and keep a shotgun with a tactical light and #5 shot for home defense. You've put a lot of thought into one area and perhaps neglected a few others. I'm glad to see so many interested parties either way and I hope none of us ever has to find out first-hand about any ammo's stopping power.
Sorry in advance for the lecture, I simply worry that some day, given the odds, someone on here will overstep their bounds and become what they sought protection from. My personal choice is the Hornady XTP in 155gr and 5.5gr of TiteGroup in a Federal wrapper. I neither endorse said round nor recommend it as we do not know eachother and you have no reason to accept my recipe for your particular need.
Stay safe, shop smart, shop S Mart.
The point to consider is that hollow points were meant to inflict damage with controlled expansion. That expansion is two-fold in purpose: enlarge the wound channel and dump stored energy into the target. Why is that important? Anyone? To cause damage to the intended AND ONLY the intended. Carrying a pistol does not give you the right to use it in any manner you see fit. It also, most assuredly does not give you the right to inflict collateral damage to others who may be BEHIND your intended target. That is why the rangemaster does not allow people to wander down range when the line is hot. While you know you're aiming at your target, he doesn't know how good your aim is.
That being said, every cartridge has an intended purpose. Do not doubt or rethink its ability to "put a man down". Read what the manufacturer has to say about it beyond the ballistic chart. Hornady TAP for instance is meant for penetration...of mild steel. Hornady Critical Defense is meant for penetration of humans without clogging or deforming when it hits fabrics (like clothing, in case your assailant isn't nude).
Yes, a chronograph is helpful, even more so if you load your own. I've got one and have owned one for nearly two decades. They're cheap, accurate and can provide some peace of mind when determining whether or not a round will do what it is purported to.
Lastly, does anyone ever really think about what they post on the internet these days? Calling yourself "man killer" or "rightous angel" and asking what works best in your third back up mag will not likely remain anonymous if you jerk that pistol and shoot someone. One day at a police forensics lab and a prosecutor or "wrongful death" attorney will have you seeing bars and or your family eating at a soup kitchen. So practice a little restraint here, we are already characterized by the media as "gun totin thugs". Imagine if they did a nightly news story on some of the above postings.
Part II
Any of the aforementioned ammo should work fine for the majority of self-defense situations. Be conscious of your surroundings and what you're likely to encounter. If TAP is what you think you need then load a magazine with it. Keep another loaded with Winchester and keep a shotgun with a tactical light and #5 shot for home defense. You've put a lot of thought into one area and perhaps neglected a few others. I'm glad to see so many interested parties either way and I hope none of us ever has to find out first-hand about any ammo's stopping power.
Sorry in advance for the lecture, I simply worry that some day, given the odds, someone on here will overstep their bounds and become what they sought protection from. My personal choice is the Hornady XTP in 155gr and 5.5gr of TiteGroup in a Federal wrapper. I neither endorse said round nor recommend it as we do not know eachother and you have no reason to accept my recipe for your particular need.
Stay safe, shop smart, shop S Mart.
Full Metal Jacket
member
this ammo was part of a government contract overrun. it was make for subcompact HK p2000's. it's loaded to weak velocities when compared to other 135 grn 40cal offerings. i wouldn't use this ammo. there's a reason why it's cheap, & so readily available....
i decided to go with 165 & 180grn HST for my 3inch EMP40.
Full Metal Jacket
member
i wouldn't use double tap. it doesn't get good customer feedback on online sellers as far as reliability, not to mention it's loaded a bit too hot.
REAPER4206969
Member
A)These discussions are the entire point of a defensive pistol forum.
And
B)Post a case.
Skylerbone
Member
A case? Miranda. Familiar with it?
I'm not trying to limit your freedom of speech, you are well within your legal rights but 'Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.'
Its called good judgement. The same thing that keeps rational men from looking for a gun fight.
Personal attacks are NOT part of this forum, it's called The High Road. If lack of a case sight in my previous post renders the ADVICE worthless then feel free to disregard it.
I'm not trying to limit your freedom of speech, you are well within your legal rights but 'Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.'
Its called good judgement. The same thing that keeps rational men from looking for a gun fight.
Personal attacks are NOT part of this forum, it's called The High Road. If lack of a case sight in my previous post renders the ADVICE worthless then feel free to disregard it.
Always a ridiculous thing to say. No rational person wants to be hit with even a paintball marker. That doesn't mean you should stock up on red paintballs and Co2 and think you're prepared to defend yourself against lethal force.
Skylerbone- I think your reading a little to much into this. In order to to find a good defensive round talking about what you want it to do is inevitable.
Saying your wanting to use it for anything other than protecting yourself is careless and wrong and no one here condones that.
To call the 1911 design an antique is accurate, But so is the combustion engine.
I carry a 1911 when im not using this XD SC .40 and as far as im concerned NO other gun out there carries better for a full sized gun.
FMJ in anything above a .32 is the wrong ammo for SD if you value effectiveness. Modern ammo has now made the .380 even a reliable SD cartridge with hollow points.
DT has earned a good reputation across the net from everything ive read. Maybe ive been missing some reviews tho.
It is loaded hot i agree there, And in a .40 which is already snappy to begin with id be doing alot of testing to make sure it was a usable load controllable enough to be effective.
Anyhow im getting close to PM'ing a mod to lock the thread if the tone doesnt become more civil.
Saying your wanting to use it for anything other than protecting yourself is careless and wrong and no one here condones that.
To call the 1911 design an antique is accurate, But so is the combustion engine.
I carry a 1911 when im not using this XD SC .40 and as far as im concerned NO other gun out there carries better for a full sized gun.
FMJ in anything above a .32 is the wrong ammo for SD if you value effectiveness. Modern ammo has now made the .380 even a reliable SD cartridge with hollow points.
DT has earned a good reputation across the net from everything ive read. Maybe ive been missing some reviews tho.
It is loaded hot i agree there, And in a .40 which is already snappy to begin with id be doing alot of testing to make sure it was a usable load controllable enough to be effective.
Anyhow im getting close to PM'ing a mod to lock the thread if the tone doesnt become more civil.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Folks just really don't need to act like juvenile male gorillas in a chest-thumping contest. That's rather underwhelming behavior.
While i don't agree with many of your choices in ammo and possibly weapons i respect your right to carry what you want and what ammo is in it.
You obviously aren't a noob and came to your decision while being informed and and knowing your own needs. And even tho 90% of the people here will disagree with your choice in ammo, If it makes you happy thats all that matters.
Defense Minister
Member
I thouroughly agree with those that recommend a 155/165 grain round for your short barrel gun. I carry DT 155s in my 3.5". However, if you are loading something that is extra hot, like DoubleTap, a 180 will still have plenty of speed to expand reliably. That is why I love the 180s from DoubleTap.
I agree, The 180gr DT would be effective speed wise threw my 3" gun.
BUT id really have to test it alot to make sure i could handle the recoil in such a small gun with a big and hot loaded round like that. In many cases i think it would be just as bad or worse than a 10mm round.
Practice should overcome most of that, And it wouldn't be for everyone.
Im used to moderate recoil in guns since i shoot alot of .45acp and even did so in a subcompact with a sungle stack (Taurus PT745) and it was a hand full to say the least.
Ive read alot of good about the PDX1 and i picked the 165gr so i feel i have a perfect round thats a compromise in speed and recoil.
BUT id really have to test it alot to make sure i could handle the recoil in such a small gun with a big and hot loaded round like that. In many cases i think it would be just as bad or worse than a 10mm round.
Practice should overcome most of that, And it wouldn't be for everyone.
Im used to moderate recoil in guns since i shoot alot of .45acp and even did so in a subcompact with a sungle stack (Taurus PT745) and it was a hand full to say the least.
Ive read alot of good about the PDX1 and i picked the 165gr so i feel i have a perfect round thats a compromise in speed and recoil.
Skylerbone
Member
I would strenuously disagree with the notion that you should carry whatever makes you happy. That certainly isn't all that matters.
I don't care whose been shooting for 2 years or 40, misinformed is misinformed. Carelessness is still careless. Given 50 years I would never be able to explain to my wife how I did the right thing by shooting an intruder if the bullet went through the next wall and through one of my children and I could Never live with myself if it happened.
The hollow point follows the same principle as a dragster; the point is to go fast then eject the shoot (read expand) to avoid catastrophy. That the expansion increases the wound channel's size is merely a secondary benefit.
Men with much more expertise and equipment are paid well to design bullets with specific characteristics. Attempting to ignore the science, research and development behind those designs borders on criminal negligence. That was my point. Carry the propper ammo for the most likely scenario, carry a spare mag if you guessed wrong and don't stick around for your 50th shot- get away!
I don't care whose been shooting for 2 years or 40, misinformed is misinformed. Carelessness is still careless. Given 50 years I would never be able to explain to my wife how I did the right thing by shooting an intruder if the bullet went through the next wall and through one of my children and I could Never live with myself if it happened.
The hollow point follows the same principle as a dragster; the point is to go fast then eject the shoot (read expand) to avoid catastrophy. That the expansion increases the wound channel's size is merely a secondary benefit.
Men with much more expertise and equipment are paid well to design bullets with specific characteristics. Attempting to ignore the science, research and development behind those designs borders on criminal negligence. That was my point. Carry the propper ammo for the most likely scenario, carry a spare mag if you guessed wrong and don't stick around for your 50th shot- get away!
You should write your Congressman and the highest ranks of the Military to let them know how you feel about there choice of ammo.
Should he switch his gun too a .22lr with HP's in it, Will that be more effective?
Many,Many people still carry FMJ ammo in their 1911's as expansion isnt always everything.
By your thinking
People who use the antique 1911 designed guns are doing the same thing since so much progress has been made in gun design and polymers and simplicity of guns.
Skylerbone
Member
Again, you haven't read what I wrote. The right ammo for the right situation. Armor piercing rounds are meant for that purpose. Hollow points, Glaser safety slugs and the like are meant for SD. If you want to believe there must be an exit wound then I'm telling you you better know what's behind what you're shooting at.
As far as the military is concerned they use NATO standard ammo and while they are taught to be killing machines in Basic they are there to protect and serve, not to rack up huge body counts. The rules of engagement they are bound by do not apply in a street encounter.
Don't presume to understand my way of thinking when you don't read for comprehension. I'm simply giving common sense advice. If you think a jury will understand that sometimes a bystander gets killed when you shoot at bad guys then again, by all means ignore your responsibility, pretend you're not liable for your actions and decisions and finally stay out of my neighborhood.
The right to carry does not give you authority to do as you please. As far as your assertion that many many more people carry FMJ in their 1911s is an impossible guess on your part and has no relevance on wrong or right. Many more people in Detroit murder people than in my home town and yet I don't trumpet the idea that they have made a wise choice.
As far as the military is concerned they use NATO standard ammo and while they are taught to be killing machines in Basic they are there to protect and serve, not to rack up huge body counts. The rules of engagement they are bound by do not apply in a street encounter.
Don't presume to understand my way of thinking when you don't read for comprehension. I'm simply giving common sense advice. If you think a jury will understand that sometimes a bystander gets killed when you shoot at bad guys then again, by all means ignore your responsibility, pretend you're not liable for your actions and decisions and finally stay out of my neighborhood.
The right to carry does not give you authority to do as you please. As far as your assertion that many many more people carry FMJ in their 1911s is an impossible guess on your part and has no relevance on wrong or right. Many more people in Detroit murder people than in my home town and yet I don't trumpet the idea that they have made a wise choice.
Skylerbone
Member
Self- defense and the choice to carry for that purpose brings with it a great responsibility. I think we owe it to ourselves to prepare for every situation not just worst case scenario. In this case self-defense could mean protecting yourself from prison time or multi-million dollar law suits. Never underestimate the leathality of a lawyer or try to outguess a jury.
In my opinion, the main factor is if whether or not you're comfortable with what ammo you use. I use Winchester Ranger 180gr BJHP's and carry a Glock 22. I've fired enough rounds of the WR180's that I'm comfortable and confident in that they're going to go where I want them to when I need them to. I think you should just try the different ammo types and weights until you narrow it down to something you're comfortable with. Regardless of what you choose, it's "gonna put a hurtin'" on someone if you need it to. Just my 2 cents.
- Status
