.40 and 9 mm carbine onwers..what kind of performances can you get??

[saturno_v]

Hello all


I would like to ask to the owners of .40 and 9 mm carbines what kind of performances they obtain from their little rifles.
On average, the typical .40 and 9 mm round fired from a full size semi auto pistol is a bit supersonic (in the 1200 fps range, depending on the bullet weight) and it generates 350-450 ft/lb of energy (the .40 can top that, especially in heavy loads and/or lighter bullets).

What about these carbines?? I did search on the net but i did not find any meaningful info on this.

Other than defense, can they become a very short range deer rifles or they lack too much energy??


Thanks!

 

[R.W.Dale]

in my experiance a full power or 9mm +p load fired from a carbine picks up appx +/- 150fps ish. Putting you at lower 357 magnum handgun territory. Whilst not a bone breaker I'm confident through careful bullet selection certain loadings would be deadly on the smaller species of deer provided you stick to classic broadside heart lung shots through the ribs at less than 50yds.

Now this is speculation as I haven't shot a 40 carbine but given how little difference there is between modern .40 and 10mm loadings. If the .40 carbine picked up any velocity at all it would be the equal to a 10mm handgun. That makes it a viable deer killer in my book provided again proper bullet selection and shot placement is used

But don't expect either to produce bang flop DRT kills 100% of the time.

 

[saturno_v]

Thanks for the info Krochus!!!

 

[CHAINGUNMASSACRE]

I've actually done some chrony work in this regard. My Browning Hi-Power is the "fastest" 9mm handgun I have. It always, for any given load shoots about 50 FPS faster than my Beretta 92FS, and about 30 fps faster than my Walther P1. This may sound like an anomaly, but it's been proven time after time, over hundreds of rounds over the chrony. I chose it, on that basis to do a 300 round comparison against my Hi-Point carbine. With 115 gr Win white box the Carbine shot 120 FPS faster than my Browning, averaging about 1300 FPS. With Golden Saber 124gr +P JHP's, The difference was about the same, averaging 109 FPS faster from the carbine, putting it at about 1400 FPS from the Carbine (150rd avg of 1395FPS) Putting it squarely into .357 Mag territory. The 147 gr golden S. produced erratic results from the carbine, sometimes not feeding/cycling well. Velocity was not much higher than the pistol, in part because I believe the 147gr loads have a powder charge optimized for handgun length barrells. Velocity from the Hi-Point averaged about 60FPS faster than my Browning, putting that 147gr pill out the muzzle at 1000 FPS, still subsonic. My conclusion was that the carbine with ALL loads helped the 9mm achieve better ballistics, shooting flatter and extended the point-blank velocities and energy out to about 50 yards. In other words,any given round from the Carbine @ 50 yds Would have the same velocity/energy as it would from a pistol at the muzzle (15 feet was my chrony distance). The big up side is that they are much easier to put rounds on target at 50 yards than a handgun. The big downside is that you're carrying something the size of an AK, with 1/4 the power and at best 1/4 the effective range.

 

[mio]

ive used my hipoint carbine (9mm) on deer but i shoot short ranges (30-40yds) and take neck shots.

 

[R.W.Dale]

ive used my hipoint carbine (9mm) on deer but i shoot short ranges (30-40yds) and take neck shots.

well what kind of results have you gotten?


Inquiring minds want to know

 

[chris in va]

I figured as much. So 1300fps with WWB, interesting.

 

[CHAINGUNMASSACRE]

I figured as much. So 1300fps with WWB, interesting.

Yep, that one is a fairly hot number from the hi-point. But putting it into perspective, the .30 M1 Carbine will do about 1900 fps with a 110gr FMJ, but .30 Carbine is expensive.......I have done some experimenting with different +p handloads though, and got 1600 FPS with 115 gr FMJ out of the carbine. It's probably more like a +P+ load, but it was slow out of the Beretta, and produced a massive fireball out of the muzzle. The Hi-point tolerated it though, I'm not sure how many I'd put through it in good faith.

 

[chris in va]

Wow. That's in 7.62x25 territory, and a heavier bullet to boot.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I have had the pleasure of chronographing some of the infamous Hertenberger +P+ NATO ammo from the highpoint. The particular batch I had was spitting out 124grn bullets at just over 1500fps

 

[CHAINGUNMASSACRE]

Wow. That's in 7.62x25 territory, and a heavier bullet to boot.

Makes me wonder what you could get from the 7.62X25 with a 16 in barrell..............

 

[mio]

they drop

 

[CHAINGUNMASSACRE]

I have had the pleasure of chronographing some of the infamous Hertenberger +P+ NATO ammo from the highpoint. The particular batch I had was spitting out 124grn bullets at just over 1500fps

That is honestly what I was expecting from the +P Golden Sabers, but I think they are not as hot as that Hertenberger load.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Makes me wonder what you could get from the 7.62X25 with a 16 in barrell..............

don't quote me but I believe the fellow over on ar15.com with a custom 7.62x25 upper is getting 85grn bullets out at over 1700

That is honestly what I was expecting from the +P Golden Sabers, but I think they are not as hot as that Hertenberger load.

I don't think anything 9mm is as hot as the hertenberger load

 

[R.W.Dale]

found the thread

Posted by JPN 10-10-07


In case you didn't see the other recent 7.62x25 thread...

Each string was five rounds. I used S&B 85gr FMJ factory loads, Hornady 90gr XTP/HP handloads with Accurate #9 (I have loaded these hotter, but I chose a powder charge that has given the most consistent velocities in past tests), and 150gr Sierra Pro Hunter softpoint handloads with H110 (my Tok length subsonic load). Both barrels are 1in8 twist with pistol length gas ports.

For the S&B 85gr factory loads:
10" barrel - average velocity of 1741fps with a spread of 9fps
16" barrel - average velocity of 1842fps with a spread of 15fps

For the Hornady 90gr handloads:
10" barrel - average velocity of 1748fps with a spread of 28fps
16" barrel - average velocity of 1862fps with a spread of 66 fps

For the Sierra 150gr handloads:
10" barrel - average velocity of 994fps with a spread of 41fps (ejected the brass but didn't chamber the next round)
16" barrel - average velocity of 960fps with a spread of 75fps


With the exception of the subsonic loads in the 10" barrel, there were no malfunctions. In the higher velocity loads with faster burning powders, the 16" barrel had an advantage in velocity, but the velocities weren't as consistent. In the subsonic load with a slower burning powder, the 10" barrel had a higher and more consistent velocity, but didn't provide enough gas to fully cycle the bolt (it would probably cycle with a lighter buffer).

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=347428

 

[nipprdog]

 

[R.W.Dale]

someone was dumb enough to fire +P+ in a camp 9

Marlin Camp Carbine manual, page one:

"Warning: Do not use ammunition designated "+P+" in this rifle. The pressures generated by these cartridges may cause damage to the gun, or personal injury."

 

[nipprdog]

someone was dumb enough to fire +P+ in a camp 9

Wasn't me.

 

[Armed N. Free]

Thanks for the interesting info!

I'm getting ready to do some "Box-o-truth" water bottle testing of my own with my CX4 .40 S&W. I'm shooting Winchester 180g Talon factory loads and I want to know the outer limits of the carbine's ability to hit the FBI's "12 inch penetration" bench mark and to see what kind of expansion I have at that range. I'm guessing the limit will be at about 40-70 yards. We'll see in a couple of weeks if it gets warm enough to keep the water from freezing in the box

 

[ArmedBear]

Things I've learned on this board...

.357 carbines with 158 grain bullets topping 2000 fps at the muzzle are really insufficient for deer. They might work sometimes, but it's questionable hunting ethics to use them.

.357 Magnum revolvers are insufficient for deer.

.30-30 is a 100-yard deer rifle.

9mm is a marginal defensive round, and many LE departments have long since ditched it. It's not really useful for wilderness carry.

But...

Add a little velocity to a 9mm, so that it has the energy at the muzzle that a .30-30 has at 500 yards, and suddenly it's a !@#$ deer rifle!

 

[grimjaw]

I haven't tried the .40 carbines. I did chrony 9mm from a Ruger PC9. My experience with factory ammunition varied quite a bit. I'm sure an experienced hand loader could produce better results.

http://grimjaw.net/ballistics.htm

Look for the Ruger PC9 section. Highest average was from +P+ 115gr loads.

jm

 

[briansmithwins]

Things I've learned on this board...

.357 carbines with 158 grain bullets topping 2000 fps at the muzzle are really insufficient for deer. They might work sometimes, but it's questionable hunting ethics to use them.

.357 Magnum revolvers are insufficient for deer.

.30-30 is a 100-yard deer rifle.

9mm is a marginal defensive round, and many LE departments have long since ditched it. It's not really useful for wilderness carry.

That could also be titled 'All handgun calibers suck.'

Any cartridge that's amenable to use in a self-loading handgun is too weak to be effective against humans with any certainty. If you want to reliably put down deer (or men) get a rifle firing expanding/fragmenting bullets.

I shoot a semi-auto Uzi at local matches and for practice as 9mmP is a lot cheaper than rifle ammo. My Uzi is a 4MOA weapon which is enough for what I do with it. It's fun and easy to shoot and is great as a 'gateway gun' for new shooters as a 8lb weapon firing 9mmP has negligible recoil.

The Uzi is also the last long gun I would grab if I needed a weapon. You just give up too much power for the package size.

BSW

 

[R.W.Dale]

Things I've learned on this board...

.357 carbines with 158 grain bullets topping 2000 fps at the muzzle are really insufficient for deer. They might work sometimes, but it's questionable hunting ethics to use them.

.357 Magnum revolvers are insufficient for deer.

.30-30 is a 100-yard deer rifle.

9mm is a marginal defensive round, and many LE departments have long since ditched it. It's not really useful for wilderness carry.

But...

and yet has anyone in this thread said any of those things don't go putting words in our mouths we haven't said

Most normal people consider 357mag and 10mm to be the minimum for handgun hunting. So why would a long gun matching those ballisticswith proper bullet selection not be suitable for the same task especally given the increased accuracy a long gun provides


Grimjaw that's some really good data that really shows the similarity betwixt a 9mm carbine vs a 357mag handgun. I also not that no 158grn 357 load fired from a carbine gets within 250 fps of that "tops 2000" armed bear quotes

 

[ArmedBear]

Grimjaw that's some really good data that really shows the similarity betwixt a 9mm carbine vs a 357mag handgun.

Yes. He shows that the 9mm carbine gets close to the ballistics of a .357 handgun round that's NOT sufficient for hunting. .357 for deer hunting assumes that you're not using a 115 grain bullet, or a 146 grain bullet going at the low end of .357 velocities.

The 9mm carbine might approach .357 performance with some bullets and velocities, but like the .357 SIG, it does not match a .357 revolver with hunting loads.

I also not that no 158grn 357 load fired from a carbine gets within 250 fps of that "tops 2000" armed bear quotes

Not true, as has been repeated many times before in many threads. No need to dig it up again.

Finally, if you couldn't tell, there was a good deal of sarcasm in my post, all around.

.30-30 is good for more than 100 yards. .357 in a carbine can be a deer round, but I wouldn't consider most loadings to be, and it's no long-range deer rifle.

However, the 9mm doesn't become one with the addition of 150 fps with a light bullet.

I mean, hell, I knew a guy growing up who was stationed in Germany and went deer hunting (more like what we call elk, in America) with a .22 to shoot it and a hammer to kill it. They got their deer, too, and were lucky no warden saw them do it. But that doesn't make the .22LR a deer round.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Not true, as has been repeated many times before in many threads. No need to dig it up again.

Where.? I've never seen a 158grn 357 hit 2k in a carbine when published data from the past 10yrs is used or non exotic $45 a box loads. I've owned a few 357 carbines too.

Look, like I said you wouldn't want use a 9mm to bust through the shoulder bone. But through the ribs you only need to shoot through about 2" of thin bone and or muscle before you have a HP bullet shredding the heart and or both lungs. There isn't a whitetail alive that'll live for longer than the briefest period of time with such a wound. If a man knows the limitations of his equipment a 124grn +P+ at over 1500 fps will be absolutely deadly with such shot placment