.40 vs .45 / Stopping Power

[cookekdjr]

Quote:
When I reviewed hundreds of shootings every year, I never had .40 fail to stop someone.
That's because those shots were placed properly. If the shot isn't placed right, or lacks the penetration to get deep enough into the vitals, it doesn't matter what caliber it is.

Well, not exactly. 40/45/357 has a tendency to perform well even on limb shots. I had alot of cases where folks were shot in "non-vital" areas with the above calibers. They still hit the dirt and died. I'd see this alot in shots in the upper thigh and pelvis region. The weaker calibers tended to glance off the femur, while the 40/45/357 tended to shatter the femur, the victim hit the dirt, and often bled to death very quickly. The victims also had trouble getting up to return fire or escape because of the shattered bones and accompanying blood loss. The better 9mm loads mimicked 40/45/357, the standard 9mm loads performed poorly. This is not caliber-bashing; I carry 9mm. But 40/45/357 does not require the same shot placement as weaker loads. Shot placement is still king, but its not as critical with .40 the way it is with, say, .380. Just my experience, YMMV.
-David

 

[mavracer]

premium 45 will always out perform .40s
That is not my experience. Maybe on paper that's the case, but I've reviewed too many shootings in my job to accept that. I personally do not shoot .40 as well as I shoot 9mm or .45 (YMMV) but I have found that .40 stops people as well as any handgun cartridge. When I reviewed hundreds of shootings every year, I never had .40 fail to stop someone. That includes fmj loads. I consider .40, .45, and .357 to be roughly equal when using typical defensive ammo.
-David

I agree shot placement is important.but you must also agree premium ammo makes more difference in say 9mm and 38 than .357 and 45. you must also agree that in OP, the 40 load is typical of most premium ammo while the 45 load is slow compaired to others.with premium ammo the 45s bigger bullet thats going as fast is going to make a larger wound period.and your theory, that the 40 will work with the same shot placement when a 9mm will not, expounded means that the 45 may work when the 40 would fail.

 

[telecaster1981]

One of them found himself in a fight wherein the 9mm failed him and he was nearly killed.

Man, am I ever getting tired of this way of thinking...
I'm not trying to pick on Cherryriver, but I see an awful lot of statements like that on various forums and it drives me nuts!

I don't think the 9mm failed him...it fired and the projectile went where the operator directed it to go...perhaps HE failed him???
Lots of shooters devote so much time and money to having a dead-reliable firearm with dead-reliable ammunition and don't spend nearly enough time making sure their skills are dead-reliable.

To be fair, here's a point to ponder...there's a lot of chance involved as well. Any hunters out there know what I'm talking about. I've seen deer shot through the boiler room with a 30-06 run 100yds or more before they crap out and I've seen other deer shot through the neck with a .30 carbine that drop like a rock. There are a lot of variable problems involved that can't always be solved by buying a bigger, badder gun. For years, I hunted deer and always took the traditional 'behind the front legs' shot and found it to be less than reliable even when shot placement was perfect. Yes, they all died. Yes, I found them all but there were a few that almost got away. If this was a BG shooting back at me, that kind of put down isn't nearly reliable enough. Hydraulic shutdown is an iffy thing and I wouldn't count on it to save my life. That's why for the last five years I've been shooting my deer in the head...they ALL drop like a rock...end of story. FWIW

 

[Patton21]

I agree with Telecaster1981...those types of second hand comments are annoying and all to common. They have their place, but have no real weight or substance to back them up. Those two SWAT members have their opinion, but how do you rationalize their comments with the NYPD who use Speer GD 9mm+P with great affect? Everyone has their opinions I suppose.

 

[cookekdjr]

I agree shot placement is important.but you must also agree premium ammo makes more difference in say 9mm and 38 than .357 and 45. you must also agree that in OP, the 40 load is typical of most premium ammo while the 45 load is slow compaired to others.with premium ammo the 45s bigger bullet thats going as fast is going to make a larger wound period.and your theory, that the 40 will work with the same shot placement when a 9mm will not, expounded means that the 45 may work when the 40 would fail.

Well, I'm not going on theory, I'm going on experience. Yes, premium ammo makes a huge difference for 9mm. It determines if 9mm will perform like more like .380 or more like .357. That's been my experience.
My experience with .40 is that, in almost any common commercial loading, it performs roughly equal to .45 and .357. I understand the logic you are using, and it seems like what you suggesting would in fact be the case (If a .40 bullet going x fps does this well, then the .45 should do even better...). But I've just never seen it for myself. What I have actually seen is that no common service caliber outperforms .40 on the street. Maybe .40 just hits that sweet spot where good performance is very reliable. I don't know why it performs the way it does, I just know that it does it. I personally do not shoot .40 as well (my personal weapon is a Glock 19 that I load with premium ammo) but many people do.
Recently I was issued a G27. I plan to use 165gr Hydra-shocks for the time being b/c that's what they gave me to use. I'll be able to choose what to use next. The great thing about the caliber is all I have to find is ammo that is accurate and reliable. I don't have to worry about stopping power b/c almost any load in .40 will do fine. YMMV, but this is what I have seen.
-David

 

[Double Naught Spy]

tostada's tone was a bit abrasive, but the point is spot on. The logic that an officer won't use 9mm because it failed him once can be made with just about any caliber. In the field, there are all sorts of factors that come into play such that singular incidents are not useful and such argument is not a valid justification for one caliber over another. It also flies hand in hand with the notion that the same thing won't happen with the larger calibers as was implied with the idea that the departments won't use anything smaller than a .40.

If you want to play the example game in a different supposedly relevant manner, then take a look at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/table34.htm . Over the last 10 years, more cops have been feloniously killed with 9mm over those killed with .40 and .45 combined. Heck, more are killed with 9mm than all rifle calibers combined, or more than all shotguns combined. That would seem to indicate that the 9mm is the king of killers. Of course, such a statistic is more likely the result of the number of bad guys using 9mm guns rather than the caliber somehow being superior to 12 ga shotguns, 7.64x39 rifles. We have no idea from these stats just how many times any of the calibers failed to kill, and the numbers have to be much larger than when they did, given the number of times police are reported to be shot and not killed in the news.

What does that mean? When taken out of context or when the actual parameters producing the results are not known ala tostada), then such information isn't as amazing or solid as it would appear.

As noted in several other threads, there are all sorts of reasons departments choose specific weapons, calibers, and ammo makes/models and those departmental decisions often are not based solely on the ability of the round to produce stops or kills. There are often financial reasons that come into play, for example. Who will provide the department the best deal? There may be training issues involved. Is there a caliber that everyone in the department can handle well? And so on. It isn't a simple issue.

 

[cherryriver]

The discussion was about stopping power, not killing power. Two entirely different things.
Around here, experienced professional killers use .22LR. But not in fights.
To clarify one point, the municipal officer cited who had his 9mm fail to stop an assailant with multiple good upper torso hits does not base his opinion on that one particular incident, but rather upon the many police gunfights he has seen personally and the many, many more he has directly investigated involving his own officers, literally scores of them.
While still anecdotal, his base of opinion is much broader than one isolated incident.

 

[mavracer]

I personally do not shoot .40 as well (my personal weapon is a Glock 19 that I load with premium ammo) but many people do.

acually this is quite common.most people find the 9mm easier to shoot and easier to shoot a little faster accuratly.

The great thing about the caliber is all I have to find is ammo that is accurate and reliable. I don't have to worry about stopping power b/c almost any load in .40 will do fine.

as I have said before all 40S&W is hot ,no 90 year old 40s to worry about.
and all 40 cal JHPs have been designed in the last 25 years so most work well.these I agree with I'm not trying to say the 40 is not a good defence round because it is,heck most of the time I carry a 38 spcl. or 32acp but I live a mundane life in a low crime area in the midwest.
BUT if you look at Evan Marshall's data the best 45 is 96% the best 40S&W is 94% both great numbers and roughly equal unless you do the math the 40 failure rate is 33% higher 6% opposed to 4%, therfore the .45 is the better stopper even if only alittle bit it is none the less BETTER.
If you don't agree we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[tostada]

ArfinGreebly / Tecumseh:

Maybe it wasn't as funny as I thought, but the intent was to call cherryriver on his blatant lies and obviously fabricated story about knowing multiple swat commanders who have proof (of which he doesn't even pretend to actually have) that 9mm is useless.

 

[acolette]

Man, am I ever getting tired of this way of thinking...
I'm not trying to pick on Cherryriver, but I see an awful lot of statements like that on various forums and it drives me nuts!

I don't think the 9mm failed him...it fired and the projectile went where the operator directed it to go...perhaps HE failed him???
Lots of shooters devote so much time and money to having a dead-reliable firearm with dead-reliable ammunition and don't spend nearly enough time making sure their skills are dead-reliable.

To be fair, here's a point to ponder...there's a lot of chance involved as well. Any hunters out there know what I'm talking about. I've seen deer shot through the boiler room with a 30-06 run 100yds or more before they crap out and I've seen other deer shot through the neck with a .30 carbine that drop like a rock. There are a lot of variable problems involved that can't always be solved by buying a bigger, badder gun. For years, I hunted deer and always took the traditional 'behind the front legs' shot and found it to be less than reliable even when shot placement was perfect. Yes, they all died. Yes, I found them all but there were a few that almost got away. If this was a BG shooting back at me, that kind of put down isn't nearly reliable enough. Hydraulic shutdown is an iffy thing and I wouldn't count on it to save my life. That's why for the last five years I've been shooting my deer in the head...they ALL drop like a rock...end of story. FWIW

My last deer was taken with a .22 lr, between and just above the eyes.
If you don't miss, they drop immediately.
Placement is far more important than theoretical stopping power.

 

[DenaliPark]

all modern 40 is hot, some 45 is not. premium 45 will always out perform .40s
but never I repete never enough to overcome poor accuracy.a .

I don't think so, I don't think many medical examiners can easily distinguish between the two, even at autopsy! In fact, docGKR states that they don't see any significant difference between 9mm, .40, or .45 in terminal ballistics.

The trend is away from the supersonic in pistol calibers intended for LE & defensive use. Not that they don't work, its just that they really don't work any better then the subsonic loads...

 

[GLOOB]

I think it's obvious that if .40 works good enough, then .45+P works a little better than good enough. More energy with a larger bullet. As long as you don't overpenetrate, more is better. I don't care if a doctor can't tell the difference between .70" and .95". Everyone else can.

 

[DenaliPark]

I think it's obvious that if .40 works good enough, then .45+P works a little better than good enough. More energy with a larger bullet. As long as you don't overpenetrate, more is better. I don't care if a doctor can't tell the difference between .70" and .95". Everyone else can.

You can believe whatever you want, the facts speak otherwise...

 

[gym]

I used to be a big fan of "stopping power", and still would rather carry a 45 than my 9. But I have seen people who were shot with both, survive, and others die. The rapper 50 cents was shot 9 times. I stronglly believe that it's where the bullett goes more that the caliber, but I still am not taking any chances. I also saw a colombian guy shot with 5, 45's, Pull off his shirt and showed me the entry holes. He was fully functional in 1980. Don't know if he is now. If the bullett goes where you want it to, it should do the job with 2-3 rounds unless it's a head shot. Also speed used to be named as more of a factor in stopping power than now. If my powerball 100 grain 9mm, is traveling at 1300 +fps, it has to do some damage dosen't it. I just like the un scientific approach that the 45 makes a larger hole. If there was a 60 caliber that didn't weigh 5 pounds, I would get one of those also. Hickock has a video, where he discusses "knockdown power" and fires 38 on up to 44 mag, he's shooting at his steel plates, "very un scientific", but the 10, 357, 40, and 44 mag, seemed to move that plate about the same, using standard recommended loads for each pistol and revolver. Call me old fashioned, the 9 and 38, did not wack that plate as hard, go look at the video. I find sometimes seeing it is a lot better than talking about it, look at his knockdown power video. And as many of you guys mention, it's a pistol, not a rifle or shotgun. It's not always the best option, but the only one we may have available at the time.

 

[rellascout]

Lot of little holes in the right place regardless of caliber is what kills people with handgun rounds. 9mm, 40 S&W 45 ACP can all get the job done. Bullet technology has come a long way in the past 25 years. There is no one single best bullet design and there is no one single best caliber.

The concept of stopping power from any of these rounds is a myth IMHO. Shoot the one that you shoot best and can put the most positive hits in the proper places.

 

[Xfire68]

I did a search for .40 VS .45 on this forum and found no less then 15 with exactly that in the threads title out of only 6 of the 150 pages of threads the search found!

My reason for posting this? Dead Horse! See this at least once a month and it's the same info, nothing has changed.

 

[Dunedain]

I don't think there's enough difference between 9mm Luger and .40 S&W to bother with and take the loss in capacity. If I want capacity, I go with 9mm. If I want more power, I don't fool around, I'd go straight for .45 ACP.

Oh, and based on chronographed video tests I've seen on youtube of Double Tap brand ammo loaded in the last year or so, I wouldn't buy it, as it's not going at close to the speeds that DT claims. If you want seriously full power ammo in a variety of calibers (.45 ACP, 9mm, 10mm, etc.) that actually goes at the speeds that are claimed, go to: http://swampfoxgunworks.com/

 

[rellascout]

I don't think there's enough difference between 9mm Luger and .40 S&W to bother with and take the loss in capacity. If I want capacity, I go with 9mm. If I want more power, I don't fool around, I'd go straight for .45 ACP.

More power? How much of that power is getting transferred into the target and how much stopping effect does it have?

I am interested to know what data you are basing this on. Thanks in advance.

 

[Dunedain]

The statistics I've seen (I think it was Evan Marshall who compiled these?) from police shootings in the U.S. showed that the .45 ACP was more reliable than 9mm in stopping criminals quickly and effectively. And, of course, there are the many accounts of combat veterans that I think many of us have seen that the .45 ACP is quite effective in combat, but naturally those are less analytical and comparative.

 

[gatornavy]

Well, just my humble opinion but the 40 and 45 are pretty similar on the receiving end, and the point I wanted to make is how many people in a SD situation just shoot once? I know im biased but in the military we are trained to shoot until the target is down, not shoot, look, shoot so really your target will end up with 5 holes, not just one, put them all close together center mass and you got a dead bad guy either way, just my 2 cents.
I have shot the 40 in beretta px4 and glock and it is "snappier" than 45 IMO but in CQB I am more than likely going to empty a mag into you just to make sure you dont get back up and shoot/sue me so either one would be ideal

 

[DenaliPark]

The statistics I've seen (I think it was Evan Marshall who compiled these?) from police shootings in the U.S. showed that the .45 ACP was more reliable than 9mm in stopping criminals quickly and effectively. And, of course, there are the many accounts of combat veterans that I think many of us have seen that the .45 ACP is quite effective in combat, but naturally those are less analytical and comparative.

Evan Marshall & Ed Sanow lied! They have been totally, completely, discredited, they were caught red handed fabricating & misrepresenting evidence....Just thought you should know, thats why they don't show themselves around the gun forums anymore...

 

[Shadow 7D]

Caliber wars are Passe
I mean Blah, really, could it possibly be that LOCATION
is vital, I mean hitting a Vital Location is key??
Past that it's what flavor of Ice cream, or Get an XD or Glock and have a Neapolitan...

 

[Dunedain]

Ah, I hadn't read that, thanks for the update. Well, then I guess we're left largely with accounts from officers and soldiers, which are often quite favorable about the .45 ACP's effectiveness.

But I'm certainly not getting into the (seemingly endless) debate about 9mm vs .45. I have a 9mm pistol and do not have a .45 ACP pistol, and even if just based on the combat accounts of the .45 ACP in action, I have no problem saying the .45 ACP is likely, on average, more effective. At least until such time as solid evidence to the contrary is shown.

Having said that, when it comes to pistols, shot placement is the single most important factor in rapid effectiveness. But since shot placement is often less than ideal in combat for a wide variety of reasons, it's nice to have a pistol in a caliber that is maybe a little more forgiving of less than perfect shots.

But for me, if it's between .40 S&W or .45 ACP, I'd go .45 ACP. There's nothing wrong with the .40 S&W, but if I'm not going to get the big .45 ACP round, then I'm just going to go for capacity and get the 9mm loaded up with some serious HP ammo. Which is what I have now, H&K USP 9mm.

 

[rellascout]

But I'm certainly not getting into the (seemingly endless) debate about 9mm vs .45. I have a 9mm pistol and do not have a .45 ACP pistol, and even if just based on the combat accounts of the .45 ACP in action, I have no problem saying the .45 ACP is likely, on average, more effective. At least until such time as solid evidence to the contrary is shown.

Ball vs JHP...

Its still all about shot placement.

 

[Dunedain]

Oh, I agree. But given good shot placement, HP tends to do better, so I'll take the HP.