Mike1234567
member
*deleted* due to a site mess-up resulting in a double post.
10mm vs 45 ACP which has more stopping power.
- Thread starter MUSICALGUNNUT45
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Mike1234567
member
When did that happen? I thought we were still arguing this point.
Mike1234567
member
481...
I never wrote "metrics = stopping power". Please stop putting words in my mouth so you can TRY to discredit me. Again, we await your "metrics" to support "YOUR argument". You want us off our byootox's? Then get off yours.
I never wrote "metrics = stopping power". Please stop putting words in my mouth so you can TRY to discredit me. Again, we await your "metrics" to support "YOUR argument". You want us off our byootox's? Then get off yours.
481
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Sure you did. Back-peddle all you want. It is made clear in post #125, unless, of course, you are too lazy to read that too.
I am under no obligation to prove your point just because you are too lazy to do so.
Mike1234567
member
^^^ Who's "back-peddling" here? I openly admitted to being ignorant and needing research to support my argument, LOL!!
I wrote that you need to support your claims before I need to support my right to refute them, LOL!!
I wrote that you need to support your claims before I need to support my right to refute them, LOL!!
MCgunner
Member
Hypothetical. I win, he loses, that's a knock down...well, in boxing it is.
Dumb posts all over, mine ain't the only one. But, then, you get that with a caliber war, especially if it involves the holy .45ACP.
Did Jesus use a .45? Oh, wait, Jeff Cooper...JC, I get it now.
Mike1234567
member
^^^ I've been playing devil's advocate... or been riding-the-fence.
I try to see all angles of an equation before taking sides and, even then, I doubt my decision.
I try to see all angles of an equation before taking sides and, even then, I doubt my decision.
Loosedhorse
member
Because the opinion of an acknowledged expert, Cooper, outweighs your opinion.
Now, of course, if you have proof that there is no such thing as stopping power--which I've already asked you for--that's different. But you don't. So we're left with only your opinion on that.
I'll take Cooper's opinion over yours. Perhaps others will, too.
481
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OK, I think I get where you are going with this and where we misunderstand one another.
I've made no claims about what constitutes "stopping power" because there is no such thing. You've stated that "Metrics" (which you also define as "documented data") is what constitutes "effectiveness" or "most effective" when you responded to the question asked by Maple City Woodsman, "... and what exactly constitutes effectiveness?"
ATLDave wrote:
"stopping power" = "most effective"
BINGO!!!
MCgunner
Member
Yeah, well, when a guy asks which is more effective (avoiding the term "stopping power like the plague), I just think about hunting. I'm a hunter. I've killed game with handguns, i've shot LOTS of hogs in my trap with all manor of calibers, shoot the big ones, often, through the shoulder just to see.
Ya know, even .38 "knocks 'em down". Oh, they kick around for a bit before expiring, but hey, it ain't like it didn't hurt, right? If that hog had a gun, he'd have a hard time placing a shot with it after a 158 JHP ripped his shoulder/chest cavity. Anyway, for hunting, I do NOT use my .45ACP, not enough. the 10 is as much as my .357 magnum which is one I've taken game with to 50 yards. AND, the 10 shoots a bigger bullet than the .357. SO, I'm thinkin' which is more effective, 10 or .45ACP? Hell, I KNOW that answer....as a hunter, I know which ballistically is more effective. I've shot enough hogs with .357 and .45 to know, Jeff Cooper not-withstanding. No, those animals weren't shooting back, don't even go there. And, no, that doesn't take into account a quick double tap, but then, one shot one kill is the rule in hunting, one well placed shot. And, I ain't particularly recoil shy.
So, you guys go on and argue the point. Oh, wait, the point is now, "there's no such thing as stopping power because JC said so". Well, I ain't going to waste breath, er, well, bandwidth on THAT one.
481
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Cooper is hardly qualified to speak to the unitarily undefined concept of "stopping power" and his opinion is not proof of anything other than that he has an opinion about something that remains as of yet undefined and without any unitary quantification.
You've still provided no definition of "stopping power" so it is difficult to believe that you can actually say with any certainty (or a straight face) what exactly you believe in.
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Mike1234567
member
481... I'm a bit too inebriated tonight to reply with any coherency but I'll try to do so with at least some reasoning tomorrow.
bbuddtec
Member
Ok you got me goin
Since the objective of a defensive round is to expand, would the larger be more effective?
I'm going with "yeah".
(especially in the round-limited state I'm in )
Since the objective of a defensive round is to expand, would the larger be more effective?
I'm going with "yeah".
(especially in the round-limited state I'm in
)
481
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Geez, Mike..."toasty" posting? We gonna have to hook up a breathalyzer to your 'puter or what?481... I'm a bit too inebriated tonight to reply with any coherency but I'll try to do so with at least some reasoning tomorrow.
Loosedhorse
member
Explain to us how you are qualified to disqualify Cooper as an expert? We know Cooper's credentials...
What are yours? We'll take proof of either your expertise in stopping power's supposed non-existence; or your expertise in Cooper's background and lack of qualifications.
And then we'll get back to asking you for proof (a third time) of your central thesis: that stopping power doesn't exist.
Mike1234567
member
481... While I'm messed up.....
You have the upper hand.
BUT.....
Just wait until "average folk" argue with you??
Well... I respectfully lose to you... others... will NOT.
ETA: Oops... forgot the smiley!!
You have the upper hand.
BUT.....
Just wait until "average folk" argue with you??
Well... I respectfully lose to you... others... will NOT.
ETA: Oops... forgot the smiley!!
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Mike1234567
member
* deleted *
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MOHunter1978
Member
Stopping Power point of view
Stopping power is a myth. A shot of any cal can have the opposite of desired effect: it can cause "a superman effect" if the shot is not well placed no matter what the cal. The bullet stops by incapacitating the suspect: head, heart, major arteries, spine, etc. Blood loss is a biggy. A bullet simply will not just knock someone over, or it would knock the person over who fired it too, which is "basic physics." The single most important thing a bullet has to do to stop someone, i.e incapacitate them, is to penetrate. Adequate penetration is minimum 12 inches. A well placed (center of mass) shot that has adequate penetration is what will stop someone. Also, you don't have to lose very much blood to go into hypovolemic shock; we don't have much blood to begin with. 10mm penetrates more than 45, but both meet the 12 inch requirement.
Stopping power is a myth. A shot of any cal can have the opposite of desired effect: it can cause "a superman effect" if the shot is not well placed no matter what the cal. The bullet stops by incapacitating the suspect: head, heart, major arteries, spine, etc. Blood loss is a biggy. A bullet simply will not just knock someone over, or it would knock the person over who fired it too, which is "basic physics." The single most important thing a bullet has to do to stop someone, i.e incapacitate them, is to penetrate. Adequate penetration is minimum 12 inches. A well placed (center of mass) shot that has adequate penetration is what will stop someone. Also, you don't have to lose very much blood to go into hypovolemic shock; we don't have much blood to begin with. 10mm penetrates more than 45, but both meet the 12 inch requirement.
stinger 327
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Even if the .45 ACP bullet doesn't expand it makes bigger holes and doesn't have to rely on expansion.
MCgunner
Member
But, it makes 1/2 the kinetic energy. That's physics, don't get scared. +P can help a little, but 10 still wins.
Some of you guys need to get less theoretical and go kill something.
Some of you guys need to get less theoretical and go kill something.
stinger 327
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Which caliber does more damage to the human body?Yeah, well, when a guy asks which is more effective (avoiding the term "stopping power like the plague), I just think about hunting. I'm a hunter. I've killed game with handguns, i've shot LOTS of hogs in my trap with all manor of calibers, shoot the big ones, often, through the shoulder just to see.
Anyway, for hunting, I do NOT use my .45ACP, not enough. the 10 is as much as my .357 magnum which is one I've taken game with to 50 yards. AND, the 10 shoots a bigger bullet than the .357. SO, I'm thinkin' which is more effective, 10 or .45ACP? Hell, I KNOW that answer....as a hunter, I know which ballistically is more effective. I've shot enough hogs with .357 and .45 to know, Jeff Cooper not-withstanding. No, those animals weren't shooting back, don't even go there. And, no, that doesn't take into account a quick double tap, but then, one shot one kill is the rule in hunting, one well placed shot. And, I ain't particularly recoil shy.
So, you guys go on and argue the point. Oh, wait, the point is now, "there's no such thing as stopping power because JC said so". Well, I ain't going to waste breath, er, well, bandwidth on THAT one.
BMF500
Member
I'll second that.
Could we all agree that each does what they were intended to do? Go boom and make hole.
BMF500
Member
So bring on the meaningful comparison data. How about some pics? Like here is what happens when a full power .45 hits home and here is what a 10mily does?
Anyone got anything like that? Real world at that, ballistic gel pics are boring.
Anyone got anything like that? Real world at that, ballistic gel pics are boring.
thefamcnaj
Member
I'm no expert by any means just a lover of fire arms and shooting sports. The most recoil I've ever felt is when me and a buddy rented a s&w 500 magnum at the range. So should I cc that to be sure that the target feels when they're struck? I own 9's, 40's and 45's, None of them have any major felt recoil. I guess my pf9 recoils hader than anything but its a small 9mm. I've been shot with a paint ball to the neck once in a game and it hurt like crap. I always figured getting hit with a bullet would hurt like the dickens. But if all the intended target feels is the equivelant of my recoil then a 230lb man like myself should be able to run through a hail of bullets to reach the intended victim, and me and my wife should just leave our 9mm's at home?
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