10mm vs 45 ACP which has more stopping power.

[OldCavSoldier]

I think that the phrase "stopping power" has to do with people's vernacular of what amounts to transferrence of energy. For example, two cases:

First case:a 165 grain bullet going 1500 fps that passes completely through a perp's thoracic cavity transfers a minimum of shock and the perp will most likely keep coming unless the heart is hit.

Second, a 165 grain bullet going 1100 fps that stops completely in the first two inches of a perp's thoracic cavity will transfer much more shock to the perpetrator and most likely "stop" him.

So, to get around the questions of kinetic energy or momentum, I like to compare the relative shock of rounds....or Force = mass x [delta v / delta t]....considering how quickly they stop when fired in a medium like ballistic gellatin.

 

[mavracer]

The 10mm is clearly faster and more powerful, but I sincerely doubt that anyone could describe a shot that would be fatal with a 10mm that would not be fatal with a .45.

actually it's quite easy take a leg shot where the added temporary cavity exceeds the elasticity of the femoral artery and ruptures it.

The bottom line is you can't even get a concensus on which load is best for either caliber.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Here's what Col. Cooper thought about 10 and .45

The full-house, 10mm cartridge – definitely not the attenuated 10s which are popular now – pushed the effective range of the combat sidearm out beyond that which is usually expected. But extending the manageable range of a combat pistol out beyond the ability of the shooter to utilize it does not accomplish much. The full-house Bren Ten should be able to achieve reliable one-shot stops out to at least 50 meters, but pistol actions do not take place at 50 meters. The combat pistol is best employed at distances hardly more than across the room, and the Bren Ten will not do this any better than the venerable 45 ACP, or so it would seem.

Jeff Cooper, Commentaries, Volume 11, Number 12

Emphasis added.

 

[Super Sneaky Steve]

All I know is that this would hurt pretty bad.

 

[ATLDave]

Loosedhorse, a concession by Jeff Cooper that some handgun round is as good as a .45 is about the same thing as almost any other author conceding that it is far better!

 

[481]

All I know is that this would hurt pretty bad.

Yeesh. That's a wicked lookin' projectile.

Unfortunately, penetration will suffer (it probably won't go deeper than about 7-8 inches which might present a problem on larger assailants or less than perfect frontal shots) due to the radical expansion.

 

[481]

So, to get around the questions of kinetic energy or momentum, I like to compare the relative shock of rounds....or Force = mass x [delta v / delta t]....considering how quickly they stop when fired in a medium like ballistic gellatin.

OCS,

You do realize that you are not really going to "get around" momentum (p) since force

∆p = m x ∆v

F = m x ∆v/∆t = ∆p/∆t

is defined as the time rate change of momentum?

 

[MCgunner]

It's rather obvious if you look at the exterior ballistics of full power loads.

10mm

 

[MUSICALGUNNUT45]

Common sense suggests many things. Many of those things simply aren't correct. Such is the case with what you are suggesting.

You call shot placement "an excuse to ignore 'stopping power' all together", yet you claim that organ damage must be sufficient ("which isn't happening without a good amount of kinetin energy and momentum") to produce the alleged phenomena. Without correct shot placement, you don't get sufficient organ damage. Can't have it both ways.

Ignore reality at your own peril. No skin off of my back.

Im going to have to disagree with you on that one, Sure a shot to a heart with 22 is better than a shot to the leg with a 44 but you have to look at the big picture when it come to the capabilites of the rounds.

 

[MCgunner]

Put it this way, ask a hog hunter which caliber he'd want with him if He were forced to choose and had to blood trail a wounded boar.

Actually, .45 is weak for medium game, 10mm puts up .357 power with a bigger bullet. YOU tell ME which has more power. I've taken hog and deer with the .357, wouldn't carry my .45 for that and it's an accurate .45. Don't own a 10. I prefer magnum revolvers or my .45 colt Blackhawk with loads that scare a .44 magnum, actually....or my TC Contender in .30-30 for handgun hunting. Hey, a 150 grain .30 caliber bullet ain't as big around as a .45, but push it to 2050 fps and.....

 

[481]

Im going to have to disagree with you on that one, Sure a shot to a heart with 22 is better than a shot to the leg with a 44 but you have to look at the big picture when it come to the capabilites of the rounds.

Now shot placement is a determining factor?

Earlier you called shot placement "an excuse to ignore 'stopping power' all together" now you say otherwise (Sure a shot to a heart with 22 is better than a shot to the leg with a 44...).

Which is it?

I get the feeling that you are making this up as you go along.

 

[1SOW]

Maybe the answer lies in who's holding the pistol.
Your wife?
You?
Your 14 yr old daughter?

What a pistol can do in a ransom rest is not necessarily what a pistol can do when it's needed.

The 10mm 'pistol' does have more stopping power when loaded for such.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

Full Power 10mm.

 

[oldfool]

I think you forgot to insert the "winkie" or "rolleyes" on that post#25 5-2-7

but yeah... caliber wars...
if you want to kill bambi, forget 45acp/10mm, and just get a centerfire rifle, caliber of choice
absent a CNS hit, don't be real surprised if bambi shows you what "runs like wounded deer" really means

power is too often just a numbers on paper exercise, very quiet
firearms speak much louder, and bambi is a great teacher, no brakes

 

[dsb1829]

Well unfortunately it can go either way.

FBI and most typical 10mm vs .45: They will both have about the same power factor.
Full house 10mm vs .45: The 10mm will blow that .45 out of the water as far as power is concerned.

That about sums it up. Readily available 10mm is dumbed down close to 45ACP. Shooting magtek 230g out of my 1911 the recoil is more than the two types of 10mm ammo I can get locally (shot out of a s&w 1006). I will need to mail order "real" 10mm if I want any benefit of the caliber. Having said that, even the dumbed down 10mm delivers 45acp energy and also offers a flatter trajectory.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Redonkulous, which soap has more fast acting micro cleaning agents?...thats the real question.

 

[MCgunner]

but yeah... caliber wars...
if you want to kill bambi, forget 45acp/10mm, and just get a centerfire rifle, caliber of choice
absent a CNS hit, don't be real surprised if bambi shows you what "runs like wounded deer" really means

Bambi doesn't run THAT far with a lung shot from a .357 magnum revolver, roughly 10mm equivalent in energy. I know this from experience, even taken hogs with the caliber. I don't, however, handgun hunt with a .45ACP even though I own a very accurate one.

 

[HisSoldier]

I don't understand why people argue against a commonly understood term like stopping power, we all know what is meant and it's easier than saying "Which has the greater chance of stopping an assailant from one shot to the central torso?" Everyone has heard stories of people being shot through the heart with a .45 and going back to work on the roof or continuing on a 10K run. It's all bunk making it a big mental pi**ing match about the meanings of common phrases.
Maybe we should just ask "If you were shot in the chest with a .45 ACP would you better be able to continue what you were doing than if shot with a 10MM?"

My opinion, based on what I read in these forums, a 9MM will blow the back half of your body off and you won't even have time for a last thought, so Whatever you say it had better not be any disparaging word against the all powerful 9MM.

.45 or 10MM? Why not get one of those all powerful 9MM's instead? (Oh, and it's not just because I can buy milsurp 9MM for next to nothing and can't afford .45 or 10MM, oh no!)

 

[MCgunner]

Amen, HS. BTW, like I tell everyone that gripes about ammo costs, buy a reloading press.

 

[Fishslayer]

Since no one here carries 10mm ammo here, 45 acp because you can actually buy it and shoot it. Even that is getting hard to find these days... LOL

You need to get out more. The Great Ammo Drought has been over for some time now.

I even saw boxes of .38 Super +P in the local Turner's...

10mm though? That's always been a reloader's cartridge.

 

[gofastman]

Depends on the gun being used.
In a full size gun, meaning at least 4" of barrel, lets say a Glock 21 vs 20; Id say its a wash with proper ammo.
Subcompact gun, like a Glock 29 vs G30? no question, 10mm wins

I love the 10mm, I think it is the best overall semiauto pistol cartridge out there.

I like the .45(+P) thank you) , as long as I have enough barrel to get those big, heavy slugs up to a respectable velocity (at least 900fps).

 

[MUSICALGUNNUT45]

Now shot placement is a determining factor?

Earlier you called shot placement "an excuse to ignore 'stopping power' all together" now you say otherwise (Sure a shot to a heart with 22 is better than a shot to the leg with a 44...).

Which is it?

I get the feeling that you are making this up as you go along.

Your just not understanding what im saying. What I mean is that you can't always count on getting perfect shot placement in a real world gun fight and people ignore the capablilities of different rounds by saying that if you get every round center mass in an attacker you will stop him with any caliber and while this is true you just don't know whats going to happen in a real world scenerio and you can't count on getting all your shots in a perfect grouping on an attackers chest. sometimes you need to do as much damage as possible with a shot the shoulder or the leg and for me having a 25 instead of a 45 in a situation like that makes a big difference. Shot placement matters but it can't always be counted on. And I understand that sometimes you just can't carry a full size pistol and that a 32 beats throwing a rock and I do think that smaller guns have a place in the defensive world but I do not think people should say that there is no such thing as stopping power and that shot placement is all that matters.

 

[ShawnC]

Wow. All that math really takes the fun out of buying a gun. Other than my .44 Magnum hunting sidearm, my pistols are .40 and I don't see any reason to doubt them. My wife likes the 9MM. Gangbangers have been killing each other with that round for years. No disrespect to any of those rounds, I've never fired either (I'm intrigued by the 10mm and would love a 1911) but I'm pretty certain that if the bad guy's coming to get you, he won't request a specific round to put him down with. And I know before he planned his home invasion he didn't go over reference books full of ballistic charts. I say, try them all out, and whichever one you like shooting most as far as felt recoil and grouping on the target, that is the best round.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, hell, today I've been armed with a .38 special.

 

[481]

This...

Im not ignoring it Im just saying common sense should show that stopping power exsists denying it is just ignorant. Im just saying that people use shot placement as an excuse to ignore stopping power all together. and kientic energy and momentum are 2 of the 3 parts of stopping power in my opinion the other one being sufficient tissue/organ damage which isn't happening without a good amount of kinetin energy and momentum.

this...

Your just not understanding what im saying. What I mean is that you can't always count on getting perfect shot placement in a real world gun fight and people ignore the capablilities of different rounds by saying that if you get every round center mass in an attacker you will stop him with any caliber and while this is true you just don't know whats going to happen in a real world scenerio and you can't count on getting all your shots in a perfect grouping on an attackers chest. sometimes you need to do as much damage as possible with a shot the shoulder or the leg and for me having a 25 instead of a 45 in a situation like that makes a big difference. Shot placement matters but it can't always be counted on. And I understand that sometimes you just can't carry a full size pistol and that a 32 beats throwing a rock and I do think that smaller guns have a place in the defensive world but I do not think people should say that there is no such thing as stopping power and that shot placement is all that matters.

and this...

Im going to have to disagree with you on that one, Sure a shot to a heart with 22 is better than a shot to the leg with a 44 but you have to look at the big picture when it come to the capabilites of the rounds.

confirms this...

Now shot placement is a determining factor?

Earlier you called shot placement "an excuse to ignore 'stopping power' all together" now you say otherwise (Sure a shot to a heart with 22 is better than a shot to the leg with a 44...).

Which is it?

I get the feeling that you are making this up as you go along.

There is no point in wasting any more of my time chasing your circular argument and if it is necessary to explain it to you further than this you are unlikely to "get it" anyway.

There is no such thing as "stopping power".

I'm out.