.44 caliber longrifle

[rbaggs]

I have some questions about a rifle I just acquired. It is a .44 caliber Kentucky longrifle that is stamped “Ultra-Hi” and also “Italy” and has Italian proofing stamps. It has a one piece stock and a patch box that resembles an eagle. According to the proofing marks it was made it 1975. It was my understanding that Ultra-Hi were Japanese made. Any information on this gun would be appreciated. Is it safe to shoot? Is it worth anything or collectible? I got it in trade for a little leather work so it can’t be worth too much. Thanks in advance.

 

[arcticap]

I have some questions about a rifle I just acquired. It is a .44 caliber Kentucky longrifle that is stamped “Ultra-Hi” and also “Italy” and has Italian proofing stamps. It has a one piece stock and a patch box that resembles an eagle. According to the proofing marks it was made it 1975. It was my understanding that Ultra-Hi were Japanese made. Any information on this gun would be appreciated. Is it safe to shoot? Is it worth anything or collectible? I got it in trade for a little leather work so it can’t be worth too much. Thanks in advance.

Ultra-Hi was an importer of many different products associated with muzzle loading.
Most of their guns were made by Miroku of Japan.
However I did find one thread about an Italian Ultra-Hi .50 ML with a 1975 proof mark that someone said exactly resembled a gun that he bought that was made by MAVI, the company that eventually became Investarms.
However the Ultra-Hi photo link has expired so we can't directly compare it to yours to see if it's the same.
The thread with that information is here: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/need-help-verifying-this-weapons-worth-asap.128000/

Other folks have made some unflattering comments about some other Ultra-Hi guns from the mid-70's.
But Ultra-Hi may have sold some Kentucky rifles with Spanish barrels before they started importing them from Japan.
Therefore descriptions about any other guns or barrels wouldn't apply to yours. --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/know-anything-about-ultra-hi.82895/

The Ultra-Hi resembling the MAVI marked gun was said to have a snail and not a drum.
Does your's have a drum or a snail?
The fact that yours has a one piece stock may differentiate it from other Ultra-Hi guns made by other companies.
Could you post some photos of your gun?

 

[rbaggs]

Here are a couple pics. Please ignore the rust. I haven’t had a chance to clean it up yet.

 

[arcticap]

Here are a couple pics.

Thanks for sharing the photos.
Your last photo shows a "maker's mark" which is PB inside of a circle.
That means that it's a Bondini gun which as far as we know was at least an Italian exporter.
There was a recent thread about Bondini guns, and it's not certain if the company actually built their own guns or if they were subcontracted and made by other companies.
Here's the thread that provides some links with a little information about the company, but not a whole lot is known. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/w-parker-by-bondini.881419/#post-11782023
You should read from the beginning of the thread.
People have said that their guns are generally of very good quality.
Welcome to the THR black powder forum rbaggs.

Here's a photo from an auction link in my post that shows what looks to be the same mark along with the name P. Bondini.

 

[sspierce8]

I’d ask your neighbor to shoot it, and if it doesn’t blow up, then you’ll know it’s safe.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I like the lock and hammer, kind of unique. Nice example of the early days of replicating black powder guns. Hope it turns out to be a shooter.

 

[rbaggs]

Well I got it cleaned up. Unfortunately I don’t think it will ever be anything other than a range gun. The first 4-6 inches inside the barrel is pretty nasty. The guy before me didn’t take care of it and it rusted and is now pretty rough inside. I had to take the firing mechanism apart and do a little file and sanding because the hammer would fall by itself. Not cool. Not it is safe and I put a couple rounds through it and at least it shoots. I have very little hope for accuracy due to the corrosion in the barrel. At least it is pretty to look at. Haha. I also had to go buy a new cleaning jag and ball started and file and sand them down to fit the bore. I plan on shooting it quit a bit when it warms up a bit. Thank you all for the info and comments. I look forward to following this forum.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Wrap some steel wool around a jag, slobber lots of oil on it, and give the bore a ten minute intense workout. Can't hurt, and it might smooth up enough to shoot pretty good. I have an old rifle that was made before 1856, she shoots well, and the bore is by no means "pristine". I'd call it "good". Your bore might smooth up enough to be good, if there are not really deep pits.

 

[rbaggs]

Thanks for the idea. I’ll give it a shot.

 

[arcticap]

Thanks for the idea. I’ll give it a shot.

There's also a product named Evaporust that will safely dissolve rust like magic without harming the steel or the rifling.
It will remove bluing, but you may only need to use it inside the bore.
It's available in dozens of places like Walmart, auto parts stores, home inprovement stores etc...
It's reusable and totally safe and non-toxic.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Evapo-Rust-32-oz-Safe-Rust-Remover-ER004/300214902

 

[ThomasT]

Nice looking gun. Hopefully the barrel will clean up. I have looked for a long time in the pawn shops for a BP rifle with a totally ruined bore so I could ream it out and make a smooth bore shotgun out of. But everyone I picked up always cleaned up nice enough that I couldn't bring myself to ream it out. So maybe your gun will clean up. If not a nice little smooth bore may be in your future. And thats not so bad.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You may want to try .433 patched round ball, https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1/BALL-433 and a thin patch, with..., a felt wad between the patched ball and the powder when you shoot it. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/203/1/OX-WAD-44-D. These will help to seal off the powder gasses from the thin patch. I got something similar for my foster-nephew a couple years ago in a flintlock version. However, as the presence of the old, Italian .44 black powder rifles is waning, I bought him also a mold to be sure he could always supply it with .433 round ball. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/1/LEE-433-DC

LD

 

[rbaggs]

I put a .440 round ball with a .010 patch down it. It went down easy so I think a smaller ball would be too loose.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The ball and patch combo in my ancient rifle above is a go-down-easy load, and shoots well. My .62" Jeager likes a tight combo. Ya never know. The old rifle shoots best with one felt patch dipped in hot pure bee's wax.

The .62 likes two wads, a bee's wax wad over the powder, then a lubed wad on top of that. With just one wad, the fired patch will look just like a patch that was torn or cut at the muzzle. (anyone who thinks their patches are being cut when loaded, be sure to fire a light load with two or three wads, and then examine your patch before monkeying with your muzzle) (I suppose one could ram the ball down, and then pull it...but that's a long process that ain't no fun, no how.

With the thin .010" patch, and .433" ball, it would be too loose. However, a .020-.022" patch might be just right. I've always preferred small ball/thick patch over large ball/thin patch, that has worked better for me for the stouter hunting loads I use. For target use, visa-versa could be better.

On the other hand, for a somewhat tighter fit, a .018" patch may work with the .440". Lots of stuff to try! That's a neat, "classic" early import replica, would be really exciting to get it shooting good. Looks like it will clean up very well, and man think of how nice an oil finish would look on that stock!

 

[Jim Watson]

AA is the Italian proof house date code for 1975.

 

[arcticap]

The first 4-6 inches inside the barrel is pretty nasty. The guy before me didn’t take care of it and it rusted and is now pretty rough inside. I had to take the firing mechanism apart and do a little file and sanding because the hammer would fall by itself. Not cool. Not it is safe and I put a couple rounds through it and at least it shoots. I have very little hope for accuracy due to the corrosion in the barrel.

Another idea would be cut off the part of the barrel that's corroded.
If there's too many pits after removing the rust, they will collect fouling which can ruin accuracy and make cleaning a real chore.

Kentucky rifles have a lot of extra barrel length that's not really needed.
A new crown, along with the stock, front sight, and ramrod can all be adjusted.
Traditions used to sell a Tennessee "carbine" that was basically a Kentucky rifle with a 24" barrel.
The TC Treehawk only had a 21" barrel which made it a handy woods rifle or brush gun.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Arcticap is right! Especially if it's only the last 4-5-6", which is often the case. It could be cut back just ahead of the forward ramrod thimble. But, unless one has some experience doing that, the finished product may not be..."great". Considering the "almost got it for nothing" price, one might find someone with experience to do that for less than the price of what the gun is worth.