44 mag and AZ black bears

[Robert B]

I have a Ruger Alaskan 2.5 inch bbl revolver. I like the snub bbl for hiking in the AZ woods. I have two 44 magnum loads for it. Help me decide which is better for an AZ black bear. I won't be hunting, just protecting myself.

Hornady XTP 240 grain at 1350 fps from a 7.5 inch bbl.

Speer 270 grain JSP at 1250 fps from unknown length bbl.

I realize my velocities are going to be much lower. What do you guys think I will get velocity wise from each load? Which will be better for penetration in an AZ black bear?

Thanks.

 

[dmazur]

I gave up on hunting loads for "on top of me" bear defense and loaded 310gr WNFP TrueShots at around 1000 fps.

I have no idea if these are better than full-power loads, but I know I can recover for a second shot a lot faster.

Also, my understanding is the hard cast bullets are less likely to deform on the bear's skull.

So, I went with lower velocity and perhaps better penetration than a bullet designed for expansion.

But "bear threads" abound with multiple opinions on caliber, number of rounds to carry, semi-auto vs. revolver, the futility of a SA revolver, the futility of any handgun compared to a 12 gauge, etc. So, there may not be an easy answer to your question...

 

[Arizonagunrunner]

I live in Flagstaff. Any bear AZ has to offer will drop with a 240 grain JSP/SWC or JHP. So go hike, enjoy and be safe. If handgun hunting get a longer barreled 44.
No black bear in recent history has botherd any human in AZ.

 

[jmr40]

I wouldn't be surprised if both aren't right at or slightly under 1000 fps from a 2.5" barrel based on this.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

The loads I've chronographed have come up a little faster than this site reports, but not by much.

I have a 3" 629 that I shot over a chronograph with 240 gr loads that were rated at 1200 fps. I got 1050 fps.

Black bear aren't that hard to kill. Even with reduced velocity I think either would be fine. I'd probably try to balance the load that would give the best penetraion with the load I could get off repeat shots faster with.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I have a Ruger Alaskan 2.5 inch bbl revolver. I like the snub bbl for hiking in the AZ woods. I have two 44 magnum loads for it. Help me decide which is better for an AZ black bear. I won't be hunting, just protecting myself.

Hornady XTP 240 grain at 1350 fps from a 7.5 inch bbl.

Speer 270 grain JSP at 1250 fps from unknown length bbl.

I realize my velocities are going to be much lower. What do you guys think I will get velocity wise from each load? Which will be better for penetration in an AZ black bear?

Thanks.

Either one.

See you have no telling how the bear will present itself to you and no doubt either load will do better on some scenarios while not as well on others.

Still both are powerful loads.

I'd pick the one that does not kick as much and just pack it.

And personally I'd be more worried about drug runners and undocumented Democrats.

Deaf

 

[witchhunter]

I would not recommend any .44 mag hollow point for bear. They have tough hides. I have seen .44 hp's only penetrate a few inches on a few occasions. They all opened up great, but for bear, you need to penetrate a lot to get to the vitals. I ran bear dogs for years, I would not use them. Just my opinion.

 

[s4s4u]

What do you guys think I will get velocity wise from each load?

I'd be more concerned with how each shot relative to my POA, and how quickly I could recover for another. How far off do you consider a "self defensive" distance, and can you hit your intended target at that distance? If you wanna know velocity invest a c-note in a chronograph, it will be enlightening.

 

[murf]

buffalo bore has a reduced load you may like. it uses a 255 grain keith bullet and scoots along at 1350 fps (5 inch barrel). may give you some ideas.

www.buffalobore.com

murf

 

[huntershooter]

Of your two choices: the 270 gr. Speer-hand down.
This would not be my first choice, but would be much better than the XTP for Black Bear IMO.

 

[Arizonagunrunner]

Witch: "I would not recommend any .44 mag hollow point for bear. They have tough hides. I have seen .44 hp's only penetrate a few inches on a few occasions. They all opened up great, but for bear, you need to penetrate a lot to get to the vitals. I ran bear dogs for years, I would not use them. Just my opinion".

I dont know what type of black bear you have hunted or seen shot with a 44 But the three i have taken were all one shot and all dropped within 10 yards of where they were hit. I use a 5.5 barrel Redhawk in 44 magnum. I took the 1st two with factory 240 SJHP Remington ammo. Range was 30 yards and 22 yards. The last one was shot at about 45 yards using a 240 grain SWC that I loaded. I loaded 9 grains Unique and hard cast SWC. Bear dropped right where it was hit. The bullet was a thru and thru. JHP will take any black bear that walks the earth. You just have to do your part as the shooter. All three weighed around the 300 lb weight mark

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Federal has a 240gr Fusion SP load.
Federal has a 240gr JSP load under their American Eagle line.

Winchester has a 240gr JSP load. ( Q4240)

Remington has a 240gr SP round. (R44MG2)

I'm sure Speer, Fiocchi, Magtech, Prvi Partizan, PMC, S&B and the others also have similar loads too.

The designer companies like DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore, Garrett, Cast Performance and a whole bunch more also make good ammo but at a much higher price. Any of the factory soft point or Hard Cast 44 Magnum rounds will stop a Black Bear when you do your part.

 

[sixgunner455]

Bears in this state aren't terribly large. Either will work, as will a hard-cast wide flat point lead alloy.

Where are you going hiking that you will encounter bears? Don't recall seeing too much bear sign, last time I was in Gilbert.

 

[witchhunter]

Let me clarify, both times I mentioned, the bears were big (400-500lb). One was shot in the front shoulder, didn't break it, massive wound, but fatal. Second one was shot in the ham, both penetrated less than 5 inches total. This one didn't even reach muscle, still in the fat. Both bears were shot on the ground, at close range, while fighting the dogs. I guided bear and lion hunters for many years and while I have seen bears killed with .44 magnum hollow points, my first choice and what I recommended to my clients was a lever action 30/30. I have been to 408 bear trees with my dogs while I could still walk, I have seen a few bears shot. Again, just my opinion.

 

[CraigC]

Avoid generic, old school 240gr jacketed pills. The 270gr Gold Dot is a tough bullet and a much better choice than any 240gr jacketed bullet on the market. It has a bonded core, a good sized meplat and will only slightly expand at those velocities. A good 300gr cast bullet would also be an excellent choice.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think you're just fine on your ammo choice. I would buy a couple boxes (or load them) of hard cast solids. But I often grab what's handy because I'm not too worried about bear attacks in general.

I might add that I find it comforting to have a handgun with me when I really smell a lot of "bear" in the woods.

 

[Torian]

Gold dot and XTP are both great bullets. I frequently interchange between the two in my 10mm. I personally think the XTP is more of a deep penetrating hollow point, and holds up better going through harder targets (hunting load).

If I had to carry a hollow point for bear, I would definitely pick the XTP over the gold dot. My standard load however for protection in the woods is a hard leadcast.

The 44 magnum can definitely get the job done.

 

[CraigC]

My opinion and experience has been 180° opposite. The XTP is prone to jacket-core separation and tends to be more lightly constructed. Gold Dots of appropriate weight hold together much better. I would consider the Speer 270gr Gold Dot (Deep Curl) and 300gr JSP to be superior bullets to their XTP counterparts.

 

[AJumbo]

Between the two, the gold Dot. Given my druthers, a heavy WFN cast bullet. Controllability for the second shot is more important than expansion. The Buffalo Bore load mentioned above is more than adequate for the job.

 

[HKGuns]

Neither, while not grizzly's they are still bears. My choice is 240 - 300gr hard cast lead for penetration as mentioned above.

 

[Salmoneye]

Listen to WitchHunter...

I have the exact same opinion (and experience) of hollow points and penetration on bear...

I dont know what type of black bear you have hunted or seen shot with a 44 But the three i have taken were all one shot and all dropped within 10 yards of where they were hit. I use a 5.5 barrel Redhawk in 44 magnum. I took the 1st two with factory 240 SJHP Remington ammo. Range was 30 yards and 22 yards. The last one was shot at about 45 yards using a 240 grain SWC that I loaded. I loaded 9 grains Unique and hard cast SWC. Bear dropped right where it was hit. The bullet was a thru and thru. JHP will take any black bear that walks the earth. You just have to do your part as the shooter. All three weighed around the 300 lb weight mark

And I have seen Winchester White Box fired from a Marlin 1894 barely penetrate the ribs...Beautiful mushroom, but not a round I will ever consider carrying as a 'Bear Defence' load, which is what this thread is about...

 

[KMO]

No black bear in recent history has bothered any human in AZ.

Recent history? We had two black bear attacks just last summer (2012) at a Forest Service campground near Payson, AZ. The second attack left the victim in critical condition. That particular black bear was a large male. A neighboring camper put 7 rounds of 9mm into the kill zone as the bear reared...testimony to an insufficient round for bears (no effect whatsoever). Recent history also includes a bear attack at a girl scout camp on Mt. Lemmon near Tucson, resulting in a fatality.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/regio...man-injured-in-3rd-bear-attack-in-payson-area

 

[sixgunner455]

Huh. I had not heard about either of those attacks.

I did go to the Tombstone museum and see a hunter's 1886 Winchester rifle that was recovered near his corpse in about 1895. A bear had killed and consumed most of him before they found him.

 

[KMO]

Well, there was no shortage of media coverage on the two 2012 campground attacks near Payson. There was also a third attack in a local subdivision in the same area.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Id say lower the bar for blackbear and use the .357 mag but if .44 is what you have it will do the job and then some. Remember when blacks attack they are most likely attacking to kill and consume.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'd just use a standard Keith load. no need to get all fancy and hope to Jesus that that slow SP or HP will expand and not act like an ice pick/FMJRN