44 mag and AZ black bears

[2zulu1]

Witch: "I would not recommend any .44 mag hollow point for bear. They have tough hides. I have seen .44 hp's only penetrate a few inches on a few occasions. They all opened up great, but for bear, you need to penetrate a lot to get to the vitals. I ran bear dogs for years, I would not use them. Just my opinion".

I dont know what type of black bear you have hunted or seen shot with a 44 But the three i have taken were all one shot and all dropped within 10 yards of where they were hit. I use a 5.5 barrel Redhawk in 44 magnum. I took the 1st two with factory 240 SJHP Remington ammo. Range was 30 yards and 22 yards. The last one was shot at about 45 yards using a 240 grain SWC that I loaded. I loaded 9 grains Unique and hard cast SWC. Bear dropped right where it was hit. The bullet was a thru and thru. JHP will take any black bear that walks the earth. You just have to do your part as the shooter. All three weighed around the 300 lb weight mark

Yes and no, a JHP may take any black bear that walks the earth, but more than likely, multiple JHPs. Regardless, JHPs are a poor choice for defensive against black bears. Black bears live in the desert and have been hit on I-10, two that I know of (Cochise County) were in the 370-400# range.

One 150# black bear that had been hit by a car took all six shots from a 357mag (JHPs) to be dispatched.

In another black bear encounter, a young man was out with his dog when it was attacked by a black bear. It was not a large bear, but it took all six rounds of 41mag/JHPs, at less than optimal angles, to stop the bear.

An attacking black bear, as others have posted, will present shooting angles that are less than optimal, thus negating the choice of JHPs for black bear defensive carry.

Heavy JSPs/WFNs in the 250gr/300gr weight range ~@1100fps are more than adequate for bear defense in Arizona.

 

[kvtcomdo]

44 Mag Bear Medicine

Thoughtful comments all.

If the only available alternatives to you are the bullet designs you mention I would go with the SP.

I agree with a different bullet an would get the Buffalo Bore Hard cast if 4 legged creatures are what you concerned about.

Just another opinion.

 

[cochise]

Read this, I always thought Lead Hard Cast was the right choice, but this expeirenced hunter said NO.

http://www.foggymountain.com/handgunning-bear-hunt3.shtml

 

[Salmoneye]

That guy states that if you choose cast, one should use a softer lead alloy so that it:

"will deform in muscle tissue"

And then goes on later to commend someone else for choosing what amounts to a fully jacketed hard cast Sierra bullet:

"His cartridge was a handloaded .44 Magnum employing a Sierra 220-grain MCP bullet over 25.0 grains of Accurate Arms No.9 powder for about 1250 fps from the four-inch gun. It was a good choice of bullet; the Sierra 220 grainer was originally designed for metallic silhouette competition (it is commercially loaded by Federal) and has a thick jacket that curls up over the ogive and leaves only a small circle of core lead exposed on the tip of the nose. Strong on penetration, it will nonetheless deform if it encounters tough tissue or bone."

Not sure how to take that article, other than like everything on the net...

With more than a grain of salt...

 

[CraigC]

The 220gr Sierra might've been a good choice for a jacketed bullet 30yrs ago but we've come a long way since then. A properly cast 250gr Keith bullet or 250-300gr LBT will outpenetrate it and do more damage in the process.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Pretty sure you are well covered with either one. A .357 would be enough for a black bear with the right ammo, but I too would carry the 44 if I had one. Honestly if black bears are all you are worried about, I'd be inclined to role my own if possible. Some hard casts loaded to about 1000 ft/sec would be plenty and follow up shots would be easier.

 

[murf]

robertb,

the current issue of handloader magazine has an excellent article about shooting a black bear with a revolver. the gun used is a ruger blackhawk in 45lc, but could have easily been a 44 magnum.

murf

my bad: it's in the april 2013 issue of handloader magazine, not the current issue. you can go to their website (riflemagazine.com) and buy the article.

 

[2zulu1]

Nice video to watch on this Arizona Game & Fish website.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/urban_bear.shtml

 

[Pointshoot]

There was a fellow awhile ago who went by the forum name JJ HACK. He is/was a hunting guide and had killed and witnessed the taking of hundreds of black bears over decades. He did black bear control for his state game department. He also hunted griz and brown bears up in Alaska.

For black bears he suggested a JHP. Hardcast can just sail through them if it doesnt hit bone and the bear can run off. The bear flesh seals around the wound as the bullet passes through causing relatively little bleeding. This was a real problem since this fellow had bear hunting dogs and they could be killed by an enraged bear. He also found that black bears would tend to swat at the JHP wounds as if they were stung by a hornet and that would anchor them in place if any additonal shots were required. I use 44 mag ammo loaded with the 240gr XTP for this application.

When it came to big Alaska bears such as griz and brownies, the guide said that JHP won't do it. They are a totally different thing compared to most black bears. For that application he suggested hardcast with a wide flat meplat. Break bone / penetrate to central nervous system(tough with a revolver). Revolver is last ditch/always handy. Rifle is more appropriate.

I'm relaying this by memory as its been posted in many hunting/shooting forums. Just websearch JJ HACK, handguns, bears and you should easily find the info. He also wrote an article on this subject that was in 'Bear Hunting' magazine. The man gained his experience from witnessing many encounters, not just a few. After reading his views and doing lots of research, I carry different ammo when in black bear country than when I'm in griz country. ('Griz country' defined as places where they are in significant numbers, not where they are almost as rare as Big Foot - as in my state.)

Ive had only a few half 'interesting' encounters with bears. Most of the time black bears run away as fast as possible when they see you are human. A bowhunting buddy came on a momma and her cubs. He made noise and slowly backed out of there, but had his sidearm handy. He was very happy that he didnt have to shoot any of them, they were just doing their 'bear thing'.

 

[HKGuns]

Everyone assumes black bears are less dangerous because they aren't as large as brown or grizzlies. Black bear attacks are just as likely as Brown.

Click

 

[Ex]

Spending lots of time in the Az mountains above Payson, I have thought long on appropriate ammo to use in a G20 10mm. Not only do we have black bear to consider but mountain lion also. Roll my own to run 1250 fps with 180 gn bullets.

I alternate two FMJFN and then JHP etc. I feel that fulfils all requirements.

It was two years ago that the state (Az) estimated a bear per square mile in the Four Peaks area. That is certainly a high enough concentration to expect and prepare for the possible encounter and to not be a victim.

 

[murf]

ex,

the three bar wildlife area has had the greatest concentration of bears in the state for quite a while. about fifteen or twenty years ago, the bears mast crop failed and a bunch of hungry bears came down off the mountain into apache junction in search of food.

spiced up the local news channels for a while.

murf

 

[2zulu1]

Spending lots of time in the Az mountains above Payson, I have thought long on appropriate ammo to use in a G20 10mm. Not only do we have black bear to consider but mountain lion also. Roll my own to run 1250 fps with 180 gn bullets.

I alternate two FMJFN and then JHP etc. I feel that fulfils all requirements.

It was two years ago that the state (Az) estimated a bear per square mile in the Four Peaks area. That is certainly a high enough concentration to expect and prepare for the possible encounter and to not be a victim.

The 10mm is a great caliber, so is the G20. I've heard bears "huffing" near me at night, but haven't seen any. In daytime I've had fleeting glimpses of mountain lions during daylight hours. At night time I've had encounters while taking the dog out, they have come toward us at night. I keep about six acres of range grass around the house cut, and I pushed that back after my last encounter.

Had my G 20 with a laser light attached plus a ~150 lumins flash light. When big yellow eyes reflect it's either a lion or bobcat, these eyes were over 32" of range grass and it approached us from about 125 yards to 85 yards. After a tense minute or so with two lights and a red dot on its eyes, it faded off into the darkness.

What many people fail to take into consideration about defensive bear encounters is, bears will charge through brush. If one needs to shoot into/through brush using JHPs, jackets separate and bullets deflect off branches. I set up half a 1/2 size of sheetrock behind a creosote bush and all 10 rounds of 200gr XTPs/1225fps failed to hit the target, only a few hit the sheetrock. All six rounds of 240gr Lasercast bullets from a M629 hit the target.

Given the frontal profile of a charging top tier predator, I (and others who live around here) carry hardcast in 357/44mag in order to penetrate through tough bone to reach the vitals. For 10mm, I load Double Tap's 200gr WFNGC/1220fps out of a G20 with a Lonewolf barrel. There's simply too much mesquite away from the house to even consider JHPs when I see lion or hog sign activity.

Stay safe up there.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

big'uns in NC

I like bear threads...especially since the World Record Weight Black Bear was taken right here in my home state of North Carolina.

880 pounds

http://www.americanbear.org/Size.htm

 

[dawei]

• The only thing predictable about Bears is they are unpredictable.
• I have a very healthy respect for Bears; ALL BEARS.
• I've NEVER SEEN a "Thin Skinned" Bear of any persuation.
• I NEVER hunt Bears alone.
• When in Bear Country here in the Pacific Northwest, my handgun caliber, and my rifle caliber; BEGIN WITH "4".
• My Bear Boolits are ALWAYS Hardcast Lead.
• I kill ALL my Bears TWICE.
• A 150lb Blackie yearling will kill you just as dead as a 1000lb Grizzly.
• More folks in the US and Canada are killed by Black Bears, than by Brown/Grizzly/Polar Bears combined.

 

[CraigC]

None of the available 10mm jacketed pills are up to the task of anything more than broadside shots on deer. A 180gr has a sectional density equivalent to a 200gr .44 and that just ain't enough beef. If you want to actually have a chance at stopping anything, you need a 200-230gr LBT.

 

[HKGuns]

Two weekends ago when we arrived in camp the outhouse had recently (within the last week) been ripped apart by a bear and the metal refuse baskets all had tooth marks in them and were tossed around camp. Because it is so remote, the DNR has been dumping "problem" bears in the area and they are seen fairly often. We had three adults and children ages 6-7-8-9. Each of us carried a sidearm at all times. One had a 10mm gLoCk and the other an XD 45ACP. I kept my 6 year old girl very close to me as I didn't exactly trust what the other two were packing.

I on the other hand felt quite comfortable. I was carrying this with 300gr hard cast lead boolits over a significant charge of powder and two speed loaders full of the same. We were lucky and didn't have any bear encounters over the three days.

 

[flylo]

I've hunted bear for years in the wesy UP of Michigan with a T/C single shot or muzzleloader then a BFR in 450 Marlin with a 10" barrel. Now I don't get around very well so I bought a 4-5/8" SS Super blackhawk as a carry in the woods gun. I'd be more concerned about bullet placement at different angles than bullet choice. Any of the above will do the job if you can put it where it needs to go in a suprise panic situation. I love my barrel length & Rosewood grips & now they hold 6. My 1st pistol @21 was a 7.5" blue SBH that only held 5. You'll do Great!