.44 Magnum

[sparkyguy]

well, unless his heart has been rearranged surgically to his buttocks. If a heart shot doesn't take him down, your going against a zombie, which then means even a 44mag can't save your rear.

 

[Archer1945]

The 44mag is a fine gun for HD. Generally the best practice would be to load it with 44sp rounds primarily for the reduced recoil and not the muzzle flash. The large muzzle flash is not unique to the 44mag, the 357mag is just as bad, as are the 9mm and 40 S&W in their hotter loads. It comes from the powders that are usually used to get the magnum performance. However I would be willing to bet that several ammo manufacturers now are making SD/HD for the 44mag which has a much reduced flash signature.

New developments in gun powders have come about in the last few years which have made muzzle flash a non issue. This has been driven by the increase use of night vision equipment by both military and law enforcement and the realization that the last thing an LEO needs at night is being blinded by the muzzle flash from his/her own weapon.

 

[tipoc]

Yes it's useful. In general the .44 Mag is a hunting caliber that was it's intended purpose. Load it down in self defense loads or use the .44 Spl. Either way a 240 gr. slug doing between 900-1100 fps with a proper hp bullet will work. These rounds are easy to handle and control and allow for well placed rapid follow up shots. They are also neither too loud or is the muzzle flash blinding.

Oh and yes it is more effective than a .38. though a .38 will work.

tipoc

 

[mavracer]

.44 magnum Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots.

apparently you guys missed reading this post or dismissed it for some reason. this is the SD load for the 44 mag.the same 200 grn JHP used in the 44 special loaded to 1075 fps from a 4" bbl.reduced flash powder,and it has been very accurate in both of my 44s and my brothers as well.

 

[sparkyguy]

tipoc wrote:
Oh and yes it is more effective than a .38.

More effective..how? Is the bg more dead then with the 38? What data do you have to back these statements up? Oh, none. I see. You can "load down" all you want, muzzle flash in the dark inside a house is going to be more then with a 38spl. I understand the whole is bigger, I get it. That doesn't mean anything if the shot isn't placed right. In which case, the 38spl in the same spot to do the job will work fine with alot less flash and recoil for follow-up shots. It doesn't matter to me what you use, it's your life. For me, I'm not caught up in the whole macho bs as some seem to be. I, personally, have a 12ga pump for HD with a 38spl nearby. I could have my 1911, 357mag, 44mag revolver or carbine. I feel I'm better off with the 38spl as backup to the short barreled shotgun. There was a story in the news awhile back about a former Miss America(like 85yrs old) who shot a home invader with, you guessed it, an old 38spl. He was laying on the floor when the cops and ambulance got there. Don't believe the hype. Bigger isn't always better.

 

[tipoc]

apparently you guys missed reading this post or dismissed it for some reason. this is the SD load for the 44 mag.the same 200 grn JHP used in the 44 special loaded to 1075 fps from a 4" bbl.reduced flash powder,and it has been very accurate in both of my 44s and my brothers as well.

I haven't tried these yet mavracer but I do have a lot of confidence in the standard Speer Gold dots at 200 grs. for the .44 Spl.which are quite accurate out of my .44s and I've kept these in them from time to time. I'll give their Mag. loads a try.

Sparkyguy, The .38 Spl. is a favorite of mine and one of my home defense guns is kept ready with SWCHP +P this round can be as effective as any other provided proper shot placement (I could also stand having one of my .38s locked in an evidence room for a couple of years I'd miss the .44s more). Because of their smaller handier size I more often carry something in .38 than in .44. I also think that the .38 Spl. is a viable self defense round.

But the .44Spl., .45 acp, 45 Colt,any of these with the proper bullet, simply pack more punch than the .38. They can be "more effective" as a stopper for self defense. Not in any Hollywood sense of sending people flying across a room or of "One Shot Stops" etc. but because they deliver a heavier projectile to the target at about the same velocity.

Now as you likely know in self defense situations folks don't stand still so despite our best efforts to place all our shots well sometimes hits are made that aren't immediate stoppers. I appreciate the edge, small that it statistically may be, of the larger caliber and the more authoratative punch. Let's say 900 fps for a .38 caliber slug at 135 or 158 grs. versus the 44 at the same speed but with a 200-240 gr. bullet. The latter, with the proper bullet, carries more authority.

But for many the .38 is the best choice especially if the shooter handles it better than a larger caliber.

tipoc

 

[xring44]

A little first hand experience here, many years ago while I was a Ar. State Trooper, I was on the scene of a shooting, a lady had shot her abusive husband in the throat at less than 2 feet. She was shooting a S&W .38 special with 158 grain factory RN lead bullets. The wound proved fatal but some 30 minutes after the incident. He ran approximately 100 yards and remained consious until his death in the ambulance at least 30 minutes later.
My point being that, had be been shot in the same place with a heavier cabliber, or higher velocity bullet, I believe he would have expired much sooner. I've since been a believer in larger calibers for defense.

 

[Lazuris]

Stupid question: What whould happen if a BG was hit with a .454,460, or .500. Would it do nothing since it would not have the ability to transfer the energy to the target? Just wondering.

 

[Guillermo]

What whould happen if a BG was hit with a .454,460, or .500?

Lazuris,

No doubt the bad guy would have some issues. In addition to the massive bleeding there would undoubtedly be destroyed tissue due to the “hydrostatic shock”. The chances are that no matter where the projectile ended up the bad guy would not be bothering you anymore.

You could safely set down your revolver and call the carpet cleaner.

 

[johnmerry]

Brian&stewie I have come to belief that in 90% of ourself defense situations killing the Bad Guy is not always needed. I use to study Aikido; and I came to find through sparring and competeing against som rather aggressive individuals
l came came to find that needing to kill them and wanting to kill them are different. A 44special is a better round for self defense then any of 357 caliber handgun cartridges. And know I have started a war, oops. Here is why the .44 is better Larger bullet size heavier bullet weight lower velocity to accompolich what smaller calibers can do at higher velocity. All of these mixed together gives you more hitting power with less muzzle blast, less muzzle flach, and less recoil. now I do not want to here from people how the 9MM is better or how their 357 magnum can shoot God out of the Heavens. This is simple mathematics, and this is how the math works.

Taylor Knock Out formula (TKO)

Caliber x bullet weight x velocity divide by 7000. enjoy

P.S. In a defense role the .44 special is best used for knocking your opponent down,. throwing or knocking a person down onto a hard services takes lot of fight out of them especially when you blow a big hole through them.

 

[mavracer]

Stupid question: What whould happen if a BG was hit with a .454,460, or .500. Would it do nothing since it would not have the ability to transfer the energy to the target? Just wondering.

and there's nothing to say that you cant design a bullet that would transfer all the energy to a human target.they could make a 500 S&W glaser.

 

[Cosmoline]

Is the bg more dead then with the 38? What data do you have to back these statements up?

The science is pretty simple. Bigger hole, higher velocity, much larger temporary cavity = far nastier wound. A far nastier wound will bleed out faster, causing true shock and death from lack of 02 to the brain and cells. There's also a better chance of destroying lungs or CNS because the area of primary and secondary damage is much greater with the .44 magnum. Lung hits will speed up the 02 depletion that leads to true shock and death. CNS hits will drop the intruder like a sack of spuds, though of course you can't count on them. It's the difference between a 158 grain .358" slug hitting at 900 fps and a 180 or 200 grain .429" slug hitting at 1,500 fps.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/180grHorn44mag.html

Handgun bullets in generally don't go fast enough to get away with a small diameter round. If you're shooting the Mosin you can load with smaller .311" 125 grain bullets, but they'll be cooking at over 3,000 fps so their small size does not limit the damage they can do.

 

[Schofield3]

The question you have to ask yourself is do you feel lucky punk?

 

[Guillermo]

Mavracer

Hey Mavracer,

A 44 Magnum Glaser Safety Slug would cause a MASSIVE wound. That would be a 100% stop!

In the novel Unintended Consequences by John Ross, in one scene the hero has a model 29 loaded with some custom cartridges. He turned down nylon bar stock to make a bullet. The claim was that it would cause a massive wound but not over-penetrate. With your knowledge of ballistics, what do you think of this?

There is a lot of really accurate information in the book so my guess is that there is something to it.

 

[telecaster1981]

In response to the OP, .44 Magnum is a great HD round. I probably wouldn't prefer my .44 Blackhawk over my Hi Power (just due to recoil/follow up shot concerns) but the BH has done nightstand duty in the past. Currently, I have a Marlin lever action in .44 Mag doing HD duty. 10+1 rounds of .44 is a good feeling!

 

[mec]

 

[mavracer]

In the novel Unintended Consequences by John Ross, in one scene the hero has a model 29 loaded with some custom cartridges. He turned down nylon bar stock to make a bullet. The claim was that it would cause a massive wound but not over-penetrate. With your knowledge of ballistics, what do you think of this?

it's plausable, sombody years ago made some light weight tubular copper bullets I belive it was PMC.the problem with limiting penatration is surface wounds can work great if Mr. BG is more inclined to stop,if hes not so inclined a surface wound may just make him mad and another shot won't help.
IMHO these threads make me think how about a ~3" ruger redhawk rechambered in 50 special (I know it would be 5 shot) with a 325-350 grn soft LSWCHP @1000-1050FPS.Heck while I'm dreaming have smith thro in some scandium so it weighs ~32-35 ozs.

 

[Guillermo]

Nylon 44 Bullets

Mavracer,

I did a little research (very little) and found where John Ross explained it. The way I understand it the nylon projectile goes much faster as it is very light. He says that it is so light that out of a 38 spl it will achieve 3000 fps. Having less mass it possibly slows quickly and perhaps tumbles and does gymnastics, thus creating a large wound.

As to your 50 special weighing 2.5 lbs, I owned a .357 Taurus Titanium Tracker in the cool blue. It was too light to shoot. I hated that revolver. It made a model 29 look like a lap dog.

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/light_bullet_penetration.html

please take a look and give me your learned opinion.

 

[Blacksmoke]

keep mine full of Federal Power-Shok 180 gr JHP, and if I miss with the first shot the flash and blast may give the BG pause till the next shot gets him.
__________________
Eric

Or, if all else fails that flash and blast might set him on fire which is why I carry a Colt Walker with a full charge of 60 grains fffg in bear country. If the ball doesn't persuade him ot go elsewhere perhaps the greasy old boar's fur might catch ablaze. Hhhmm, that is something like what my exwife said about me!!!

Yeah, .44 mag is great for stopping badguys inside the house. What was that you said? I could see your lips move but could not hear a thing...

 

[Sato Ord]

Sparkyguy, I like that, "Is the BG more dead". Of course I also really like the .38special. Even after I buy another .45acp I still think I'm going to replace my model 85 Taurus.

That being said however, the .44 is a nice gun for home defense with the lighter special loads. I don't like the magnum loads in such a situation because I like to throw a big bullet slowly when using it for defense because I've had the chance to see a few men nearly blown out of their socks by a .45acp.

I know, I've heard all of the stories about people taking four or five hits out of a 1911 and still killing the poor goob who was trying to defend himself. I just don't believe it. I had several opportunities to shoot men with a military issue .45 and everyone one of them went down first time, and none of them got back up. I don't have fancy charts to post, or news paper reports to quote: I can only speak from personal experience; I'm still alive and the men who were trying to kill me aren't. The same should hold true for the .44special.

Now then, as for home defense though, if I am going with something that big, I'm going all the way to 12 gauge loaded with double ought buck. Nothing says you just broke into the wrong house quite like the sound of a 12 gauge being cocked in the next room! If the bad guy sticks around after hearing that in the dead of the night he ain't there to take your electronics, and you have a right to be in fear of your life and shoot him.

Also, remember, a big dog will bark and make him look for easier pickings before he breaks in (in most cases anyway - if it doesn't refer back to the part about being in real fear for your life). Never forget that a dog with normal hearing can hear a person's heart beating from fifteen feet away. The only reason you can "sneak up" on your own dog is that he knows what you sound like and trusts you.

 

[tipoc]

Nylon melts. It is also very light weight and would not penetrate much, if at all. Which is why no manufacturer of ammo makes any nylon bullets despite it's low cost. There are polymer tipped bullets, but that's another story. I believe that the use of nylon bullets is limited to fiction.

I hesitate to rely on any handgun round to knock a person down without a hit being delivered to the central nervous system (brain, spine, etc.). That's Hollywood and very dramatic but real life doesn't always work that way.

If you think that the .500 or full loads of the .44 Mag. are good for in house self defense take that gun and load to the range and practice speed drills with it. Consider your handling of the more powerful rounds for self defense. Consider penetration in an apartment setting. Consider noise and muzzle flash and how fast you can accurately place multiple shots.

Some folks handle a .38 better. Shot placement generally trumps caliber. Seems to me the best choice is for a person to use the most powerful round they can handle accurately at speed even if it won't stop a bear.

tipoc

 

[Guillermo]

nylon

Ross says that a commercial manufacturer did create such a bullet. In order to make it not slice though body armor they had to “load it down” and hollow out the nose.

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/light_bullet_penetration.html

 

[kmrcstintn]

my 2 cents worth:

a .44 mag revolver is a nice all around handgun platform...

1) .44 mag is good hunting round & increases the size of your gonads at the range

2) .44 spl is a great reduced load for plinking, practice, and HD defense; it is offers large bore performance (like .45 acp & .45 Colt) without the defeaning audible report, massive recoil, and blinding muzzle blast of full bore magnum loads

3) there are newer reduced recoil .44 magnum loads on the market (I haven't messed with any)

4) I run a lighter load (180gr) from Hornady in their XTP hollowpoint in .44 spl for HD & when sleeping over at the hunting camp (manufacturer relative specs state 1000 fps muzzle velocity from 7" test barrel); there are other good loads that hover arnd the 200gr mark (Federal lswchp, Winchester Silvertip, Speer Gold Dot) that have been around for a while & should prove effective

 

[tipoc]

Guillermo,

It could be true that at some point someone came up with a nylon bullet, I don't know for a fact one way or the other.

I do know that John Ross says he has "...killed a few trainloads of slaughterhouse cattle with various loads over the years." Now a trainload is a whole lot of cattle. The number of beef per car could vary some I suppose depending on whether it's a double decker or not, among other things. And the number of cars in the train could vary some, from 10 to maybe 20 or 30. And of course he says he has killed "a few" trainloads of cattle. I'll leave it to you to figure out how many beef this is, cuz, I'm not sure. Neither do I know who John Ross is expect that he's a beef eating son of a gun. At least I hope he ate some of that beef.

How a nylon bullet going 3000 fps works better than any other bullet going 3000 fps I don't know. But if he can get a nylon bullet to do that out of a 6" barreled .38 he's the only fella I ever heard of that could or wanted to. Makes me wonder how it would work out of a rifle. He might get rich producing them for the military. Of course if you believed he killed all that many cows than bite on the nylon bullet by all means.

tipoc

 

[zeke]

Maybe one of these days Rem or Hdy will load there 180 grain jhps specifically for defense purposes. Say about 1250 fps from a 4 incher. Speer 200 grainer at 1050 fps would seem to be excellent defense round.

Real easy to load up 180/200/210 jhp practice rounds with fast powders (231,Red Dot, Hp-38).