.44 Magnum

[Guillermo]

John Ross

Hey Tipoc,

If I remember correctly he regularly went to a slaughter house and killed cows to check out the effects of certain rounds. My memory may be faulty but if correct explains the copious quantities of beef.

Also, the point about the 3000 fps out of the 38 is because the projectile is so exceptionally light. I have never tried it and would not even put forth the subject on this thread had not it been offered as a "defense round" for the 44 magnum.

As to JR's credentials, he is a SERIOUS gun guy. His novel, Unintended Consequences is outstanding and I never found a single factual fault in the near 900 pages. The nylon bullet is something I did not know but his spot-on-accuracy in other things made me think it was possible. He is MUCH more than just an author. Handloading for years, shot millions of rounds, created the Missouri ccl law (even though he personally didn’t need to as he is a reserve officer) and a class III dealer.

John Ross is a gun guy’s gun guy and anything he says is worthy of contemplation. I am thinking about borrowing a chronograph and giving it a try. If I can produce the projectiles I will report back.

Thank you VERY MUCH for your input.

Guillermo

 

[batmann]

A .44M is OK WITH the proper bullet.
I keep my >44M 'Mountain Gun' load with Cor-Bon 165 gr HOLLOW points.
I have not used Gold Dots, but have no doubt they are excellent for their intended purpose.
Use the .44 and be happy!

 

[John Ross]

I never loaded any .38s. The .38 rounds in question were commercially produced and were marketed for a time by Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor fame. They went 2700-2800 FPS out of a 2" Chief's Special. They were called Thunderzap. Davis made a video shooting these rounds into hogs.

I loaded nylon .44 magnum rounds and got 3700 FPS out of 6 1/2".

The "Trainloads" quote was said tongue-in-cheek but the real number was still quite a few.

JR

 

[mec]

...38 rounds in question were commercially produced and were marketed for a time by Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor...

I missed hearing about those entire.
UC is such a satisfying book!

 

[tipoc]

John Ross said,

I loaded nylon .44 magnum rounds and got 3700 FPS out of 6 1/2".

You shot steers with these?

How did these rounds perform? Did the nylon deform? Were they accurate? And if so to what distance? What gun was used?

tipoc

 

[John Ross]

Deform? It disintegrated within 4 inches or so. Turned that area to soup, basically.

Accurate at 10 yards, never shot them much farther. They shot way low at longer distances. I originally wanted them for aerial shooting but then I bought an abandoned rock quarry and could shoot regular ammo safely so I quit the nylon experiments.

JR

 

[Guillermo]

Query for Sir Ross

One would assume that nylon is so light that it looses its velocity very quickly, thus Henry Bowman’s ascertain to Wilson Blair’s young associate that the projectile would stay in the body cavity.

In your experience does the bullet tumble and change directions, thus destroying more tissue? Also, one would expect the hydrostatic shock to be significant due to the high velocity. Is this something that you have observed?

Other than pure, unadulterated curiosity, the reason that I ask is that I can rarely conceal a full sized firearm. Mostly I carry my NAA Guardian 380. As I consider this better than nothing (but barely adequate) I am looking for a way to make it more effective.

Thank you mucho
Guillermo

 

[theotherwaldo]

Concealment is mostly in the mind, showing folks what they expect to and want to see.
I've concealed an entire case of beer, box and all, long enough to get it into and again out of a theater.

Ah, my mis-spent youth.

Anyway, concealed carry is more about comfort and ease of presentation than it is about hiding a weapon.

By the way, why do people want form-fitting concealed-carry holsters? Why don't they make 'em so they can't print through your clothes??

 

[Beagle-zebub]

JR, how much was the abandoned rock quarry?

 

[Guillermo]

As I usually wear a polo and jeans it is unlikely that I can conceal a Colt Python or a case of beer (with or without box).

 

[tipoc]

John Ross Deform? It disintegrated within 4 inches or so. Turned that area to soup, basically.

I'm unclear I guess. The .44 caliber nylon bullet disintegrated 4 inches outside the muzzle? or 4 inches into the test medium? What was turned to soup?

tipoc

 

[John Ross]

Disintegrated within 4" once it hit the animal.

Paid $16,500 for a 15 acre rock quarry in 1988.

JR

 

[John Ross]

Guillermo, the nylon bullet doesn't "tumble or change direction," it disintegrates, and leaves a fist-sized wound cavity with a homogenized slurry of mush in it. The nylon particles are (I assume) dispersed in this slurry. They are small enough that I couldn't identify any with certainty.

Joe Zambone (MagSafe) once said in a demo video that ThunderZap could get you killed as the penetration was too low, and an attacker wearing a heavy coat and shirt might get just a surface wound. He may be right, but I think it would be the mother of all surface wounds...

"Hydrostatic shock" is a much-debated concept about which I have no real opinion.

Folks, I'm just a fellow that likes to shoot and tinker. The nylon bullets were an interesting experiment I did over 20 years ago, nothing more.

Want a fightstopper? Send a big-diameter, flat- or hollow-point bullet out at high velocity. Get a SmartCarry and you can conceal a full-size gun, and relegate your Guardian to backup.

JR.

 

[Guillermo]

Thank you for the input Mr. Ross. There is a gun show this weekend. I am going to attempt to try out a SmartCarry. As I am of average build I have been unable to conceal anything comfortably inside my pants. Still, the ability to carry something with more power would be nice.
The Guardian I carry on my belt in a Ron Graham holster. Even that is a challenge in the heat of Texas. Of course you have your challenges trying to conceal your 5inch Model 29.

BTW
I sent you a private message concerning your book being “hijacked”. If you did not receive the specific info please let me know and I will resend it.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Some years back (1981?) I experimented with various bullet materials. Everything from cedar to fishing-rod fiberglass and bronze rod stock went into the Unimat lathe, came out in bullet form, and was fired from weapons including a '58 Remington, M&P .38, 12 ga., and a .303 SMLE. Some interesting results, and surprisingly little damage to the guns. I did paper-patch anything I thought was pushing my luck, though.

Something to do on a cold Oregon winter - and I never finished writing that particular story. Probably a good thing.

 

[docmagnum357]

I use my 44 mags for home defense, though for me, over penetration is not much of a concern.I daily carry a 6.5" 629 in an inside the waistband holster. Never been " busted" that I know of. It is a little heavy...
Size of the gun is a definate asset to good shooting. Power is a definate asset. While placement is definately everything, i find it easier to shoot accurately with a bigger gun.

Perceived recoil is different than actual recoil. The weight of the gun, all else being equal, makes a huge difference. Muzzle blast effects different people differently. Some people swear a 44 is a cannon, I personally think the hardest kicking gun, and least controlable are the titanium/ scandium 357s. All that being said, shoot a lot of guns, and buy the one you shoot the best, provided it isa 38 special/9mm or bigger. 30 luger, tokarov are also good.

By the way, I shoot a lot with local LEOs, and I have never been embarassed with follow up shot time, accuracy with my magnum. I am also able to get tighter groups, much tighter groups.

 

[Lashlarue]

I'm shocked no one has mentioned the noise factor, my first line of defense is a 9mm, I would very much like to retain what hearing I have left.Pretty sure the bad guy is not going to wait while I put on my muffs. I have 44 mag, 357mag and even 22 mag that are louder than my 9mm...

 

[Phil DeGraves]

It doesn't matter where you hit the BG because the power of the .44mag.

Yes, it does. Bullet placement is key, regardless of the caliber.

What whould happen if a BG was hit with a .454,460, or .500. Would it do nothing since it would not have the ability to transfer the energy to the target?

"Energy transfer" is a myth and has nothing to do with "stopping power" (another myth).

More effective..how? Is the bg more dead then with the 38?

Certainly, a stopping shot with a .38 is just as effective as a stopping shot with a .44. Where the larger calibers are more effective are in the shots that are NOT immediate stoppers. Now the .38 might be able to put more rounds on target quicker because of lower recoil, but hits with bigger bullets, regardless of placement will cause larger wound channels and subsequent greater blood loss thereby lowering the blood pressure of your adversary more quickly. If you put a .38 caliber hole in a radiator and a .44 caliber hole in another one, the car with the .44 will stop sooner, since the essential fluid will run out earlier.

Then again, six .38 caliber holes will work better than 3 or 4 .44 caliber holes.

 

[Shawnee]

The .44 Special, even with the severely underloaded factory ammo put out today, is an excellent handgun round for repelling borders. It's also a very accurate and pleasant target round and, in fact, used to be highly favored in some forms of handgun competitions.

 

[eclarsen]

Just have to chime in...

If you are looking for great "flash/bang" to disorient the perp and want "manageable recoil", go with 44 Russian (shorter case than 44 Colt, which is shorter than 44 spl, which is shorter than 44mag)...

and a full case of BP. The soft lead will do a job if you hit.

However, you'd better hit the intruder with the first shot, 'cause the room will be filled with smoke! If the intruder has asthma or other lung issues, he might just choke on the smoke. He certainly will have trouble finding his way out. Might even still be there when the cops finally respond.