44mag Reload Help

[TigerCreek]

After many, many years I have gotten back into reloading and came here for help and education.
My first reloads are for a Ruger Model 96 44mag lever action carbine. My go-to brush gun.
The basic reload setup is a single stage press, with a RCBS automatic powder dispenser and a chronometer.
I'm loading a 240gr round nose Lyman #2 alox coated cast bullet with 23.5gr IMR 4227 and CCI large pistol primers. The overall length on the finished bullet is 1.635 with a tight, smooth crimp.
Initial shots showed 1620-1640fps.
Then the problems begin.
After a few shots the fps starts dropping with my tenth shot being around 1200fps.
I found a lot of burned powder residue in the barrel and wonder if this can be the cause.
Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

 

[WestKentucky]

I would quadruple check your powder drop. I have had bad luck with drops and now I either use dippers to mass produce or use the scale for every charge for precision rounds. My money says your powder drop has something going on. Might have funk in it taking up part of your volume so you get a reduced charge and a slower speed.

 

[Schwing]

IMHO, pushing any lead bullet over 1600 fps with alox as a lube is severely exceeding the limits of the lube and possibly the lead.

If I remember correctly, lyman #2 alloy is about 20-22 bhn. According to my math, you can't push those at pressures above around 28,000 psi. I don't have my reloading manual in front of me but I am sure that the loads you are using are exceeding that pressure.

I can't speculate about why your fps decreased aside from double checking your loads to make sure that your powder measure is not the culprit. I would double check every load (doing maybe 20-50 loads) and see what kind of variation you are getting in your powder drops.

I would also check your barrel for leading. It may not be powder residue. Run a patch with whatever you use as cleaner down the barrel and follow it with a dry patch. Then look down the barrel. If you still see deposits, it isn't powder residue but lead buildup. If it is lead, your accuracy with suffer severely. There are several threads on removing leading so I won't go into that.

I am not aware that lead buildup with significantly decrease fps so I would lean more towards that being your powder measure.

Try backing your loads down so you are around 1200 fps or lower... I think you will see a difference in accuracy, consistency and how clean your barrel is after.

 

[TigerCreek]

My powder measure should be spot on - the slowest part of the reload
It's the RCBS Prepping ChargeMaster 1500 Powder Scale/ Dispenser Combo.
Checked the barrel and it is burned powder and not lead.
If alox is the culprit what would be the alternative? No coating?
Following my Lyman manual, it looks for an fps of 1600 for the rifle 44mag.

 

[Rule3]

What chronograph are you using?? Is it known to be reliable as in in giving constant readings.??

How far away is it from the muzzle of the rifle?

You can not base your velocity on the manual, to many variables.

I do not trust electronic scales do you have a balance beam type to verify the electronic one.

 

[Schwing]

I would still hand weigh a few dozen to make sure they are not varying. I keep both a balance scale and digital scale handy for this reason. Frankly, that is the only thing I can think of that would cause a swing of 400fps, aside from your chronograph having issues. Are they accurate or are you getting flyers as well?

If you are not getting any leading, I am not sure that I would worry about the alox. I have never been able to get away with pushing alox coated bullets that fast without leading but, like they say, if it ain't broke...

Having said that, I currently powder coat all of my bullets but, keeping it simple, you can also use the 45/45/10 lube which is 45% alox, 45% johnsons wood wax and 10% mineral spirits. You can make it yourself or just buy it premixed. I have found it is quite a bit less tacky than alox alone and holds up better under higher pressures.

 

[TigerCreek]

Shooting Chrony F1 Chronograph
Two feet from end of barrel.
The balance beam scale should be on my "get" list.
As the fps dropped so did the shots. For convenience I was bench shooting at a 100yd plate. I need to setup a large paper target to measure the actual fly/drop.
I like the bullet coating mix you're using. I'll be making some of that.

 

[Schwing]

Two feet is pretty close. Most chronographs recommend something like 8-10 feet. You run into issues with the muzzle blast interfering with the readings. You also end up with hot gases and debris dirtying up your chronograph.

You certainly can mix up your own (just do a google search and you will find instructions) or just buy it. I don't think you save enough money mixing it yourself to make it worth it. Here is where I bought mine:

http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=31

 

[buck460XVR]

Two feet is pretty close.

Yep, sure is. I'd be surprised if readings were accurate at all, altho your numbers are pretty close to where they should be.

As for the unburnt powder being the culprit, it's not. IMR4227, while a great powder in .44 mag carbines and long piped revolvers, tends to leave powder residue, especially when used at the lower end of the load recipes. If the powder charge is consistent, the powder itself is not the problem. I suspect the bullet.

I suspect that if leading is not the culprit, that the heating of the barrel as you shoot is affecting the gas seal and thus the significant loss in velocity. The loss of gas seal may also contribute to the powder not burning completely. Could be the lead is to hard to orbulate or the bullets are the wrong size. I'd try the same load with a Gas Checked bullet or jacketed and see what you find.

 

[oldpapps]

Mr. Creek,

No answers but some questions.

Does the same or similar velocity drops occur with other loads? Both bullet type (jacketed) and maker (commercial).

As I sort of remember, this is a rotary/box type magazine. Is it possible the bullets are walking out of the cases? I don't remember how many are held in the magazine, Ruger, most likely not all that many.

What I would do...
After checking jacketed loads, I would slug the barrel. 44 Mag pistol standards are different from those set for rifles by SAAMI. But that wouldn't account for velocity drops. Longer barrels, 16 to 18 inches, with sealed breaches will up the velocities over short/er cylinder gaped weapons. With best fit, correct hardness for the velocity and best lube, your velocities are very edgy. I don't like cleaning lead out, been there, dun that way too much.

Good luck in your search and please report back what you find.

 

[TigerCreek]

I'll move the chronograph out and recheck for inconsistent fps.
I'll also shoot a jacketed round for more info.
There is no way that the bullets are separating from the cases - crimp is tight and removal with pliers during test fittings was nearly impossible.
Slugging the barrel is a good idea and will give me an exact # for comparison.

Could the alox be a contributing factor and how can I rule it in or out?

 

[OYE]

44 mag velocity

I've got an old Chrony F-2. Instructions say 5 ft. to 15 ft. from the muzzle.
It seems to work best on a cloudy day or early morning or late evening on the bright sunny days. And with a good battery. And away from power lines. Might
recheck the instructions on the F-1. Best OYE

 

[Schwing]

The alox would have very little if anything to do with the velocities varying that much. Lube does effect velocity but, in my experience, not more than 20-30 fps in .44 mag loads.

If they consistently drop in FPS as the barrel heats, buck460XVR might have hit the nail on the head. Slugging your barrel and then making sure that those bullets are at least .001 larger will resolve this problem.

 

[TigerCreek]

I think I have discovered my main problem while looking at molds.
The mold I have been using is a 240gr 44mag .429
It is my understanding that .429 is the preferred size for pistols.
I am guessing, without slugging the barrel, that I need a .431 for my rifle.
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid.

 

[Rule3]

Move the chrony to 10 feet. Only other thing is how is your crimp? Is it a heavy crimp to allow the powder to fully burn??

 

[K-Rod]

.429 is the diameter for 44cal bullets. Ideally, you want to be .001" over bore with cast bullets. If you slug the barrel and it measures .430" you'll want a cast bullet that measures .431". Are you sizing the bullets before lubing with Alox? Just because the mold says .429 that doesn't necessarily mean the bullet is dropping out of the mold at .429. Measure a bullet out of the mold.

As for the 400fps difference at the chrony, too many variable's really. Crimp, different brass causing different pressures etc. Reduce your load a bit and load 10 rounds using brass of the same head stamp. Measure powder for each. Shoot those 10 over the chrony and calculate the average( add all 10 readings and devide by 10). Repeat the same process 2 more times and see if the average FPS is still that much different.

 

[TigerCreek]

Slugged the barrel and it came out to .430
I checked my cast bullets and they are indeed .429
I imagine a lot of my problem sits there.

 

[illinoisburt]

You could try switching to a magnum primer to see if that gets better powder ignition since you are shooting full power loads. Definitely would look at getting a different mold to throw .431 bullets. Not sure how many bullets you already have on hand, but you could add a plain based gas check to the .429's and keep loading them.

 

[buck460XVR]

Slugged the barrel and it came out to .430
I checked my cast bullets and they are indeed .429
I imagine a lot of my problem sits there.

I too think you found the root of your problem.

 

[blarby]

.429 or not, they would not magically go from 1600 FPS to 1200FPS based on sizing alone over a handful of shots.

They would stay at XXXX fps consistently based on size/pressure loss.

Something else is in the soup, so to speak.



Please try a calibrated load of known velocity in a jacketed bullet ( like a factory load) to get your chronograph at the right distance and calibration for your rifle. Then try the test again using your cast bullets.

If you still get 4-5 shots at 1600, and the rest are 1200, something is seriously wrong. OR, on a one-in-a-million, thats just how your rifle shoots hot. Maybe the harmonics in that particular rifle are that bad due to some metallurgical fault. But I doubt it.

 

[buck460XVR]

Something else is in the soup, so to speak.

Could be the chrono being so close is picking up the lube as it is blown by the undersized bullet. As the barrel warms up and the lube gets softer it's velocity decreases.........

All of our reply's are guesses. Between the chrony being so close and he bullets undersized, it could be a myriad of reasons. One reason I suggested to shoot jacketed bullets also with the chrono at the correct distance. If the gun then shows a decrease after several rounds as it heats up, there are other issues at stake.

 

[murf]

load up the magazine, shoot all but one round. pull round and see if it is jumping crimp. a heavy roll crimp is appropriate here.

murf

 

[TigerCreek]

Another question answered.
Got home, set up the chromo on the range 12 ft away from the rifle.
Shot 8 rounds of my 240gr/23.5gr reloads - with the .429 bullet.
1574, 1572, 1584, 1569, 1574, 1571, 1592, 1596
A 1579 average.
Obviously the chromo was too close on my previous shots.
Still powder residue and still inaccurate but I hope to solve that with the .431 bullets and possibly a lighter round.

 

[oldpapps]

Mr. Creek,

Yep, moving to 12 feet seams to have cleared the velocity drop problem/confusion.

Accuracy, in theory, should be better with a better bullet fit. Two thoughts on this. With an increase in diameter, more/greater pressures should be found. Back off the charge. Second thought, I have never found the best accuracy with the hottest loadings. Do a spread of loads, charge wise, to find the better accuracy. May not have the highest velocities but a hit is better than a miss.

 

[ljnowell]

If I remember correctly, lyman #2 alloy is about 20-22 bhn. According to my math, you can't push those at pressures above around 28,000 psi. I don't have my reloading manual in front of me but I am sure that the loads you are using are exceeding that pressure.
.

You can push lead bullets pretty hard. 28k. Definitely isn't too fast for a BHN 20 bullet. I have 45 colt loads at that level with a BHN12 bullet.