45-70 govt vs 500 smith and wesson

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Tamlin---I agree with you that the 45-70 in not the be all end all cartridge of all time.IMO it is one of the very best and versitile.Definately one of my alltime favorites.Given todays powders and projectiles it can,will and does everything that the "african" or "safari" rounds will with less punishment to the shooter.However,again,that is with todays tech.! Much like the 30-06-another of my alltime favorites- with todays tech. can and does everything,even slightly surpases the "original" .300H&H.

Please keep in mind that almost every cartridge out there performs better than it did originaly...The cool thing about the 45-70 is the penetration factor.This NOT saying that it is "better" than the others,just a unique quality to the 45-70...in certain aplications the .460 Weatherby,tho' not having the penetration of the 45-70,still has more than enough AND has the shock value,scaled up of coarse,of a "varmint" round,ie. TREMENDOUS hydrostatic damage to surounding tissue.

So it is a trade-off of sorts.What do you want/need most?

In the end I can,will and do find all manner of reasons to get any number of weapons and chamberings.I have my favorites and "pets",if you will,that I have gained fondnesses for through decades and uncountable down range sendings.Many of those "pets" are often outdone by others.Take the .416 Rigby but there it is nastalgia...it just so happens that it also works very well .

With todays tech.,to hunt everything on the face of the planet...rifles only....22LR,30-06 and 45-70.(you could even dispense with the -06) Now were the clock turned back to say 1919, I would go 22LR,35-06(now the 35 Whelen and I could easily go with a slightly larger cartridge here),and .416 Rigby. Tho' even then the 45-70 was planting the big 5 on their butts...Of coarse this could change depending on my mood but you get my drift on power levels and versitility.

And again I have to clearify that I know there are MANY cartridges that are as versitile as the 45-70 and I have stated their advantages many times thru' the years...The OP asked about 45-70 or 500S&W,after all.
 
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I don't know how I missed this thread...

The 45-70 can and will penetrate deeper than a 458 Win Mag (and 460 Weatherby and 458 Lott and...all of them)...this has been proven.

This may come as a shock to some of you, but there is such a thing as too much velocity for certain things...and penetration is one of those "certain things".

Put 500-550 grain (hard cast or solid) bullets in a 45-70 (even a Marlin 1895), throw them at around 1300-1550 fps and you'll have to go well up into the Nitro Express rounds to beat them for penetration...not kinetic energy, penetration.

Read this... http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp
 
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I should think that for drives, you'd want both:

1. A different a caliber, with a bullet that gets there faster - can make the difference between on a moving target in hitting where you want it to (minimizing lead estimation error). I don't take shots at running deer, but if I did, I'd want a bottlenecked round - and

2. Something in a semi-auto or at least a fast manual repeater like a levergun - reason being follow up shots.

Neither Handi rifle / caliber meets either 'requirement'.

Having said that, I still have a Handi in .45-70. Have hunted with it but never took a shot at game with it. But I still keep it just because it's cool - I dunno.
 
Thank you for posting those links Ridgerunner665!!!!

I rutinely carry a Marlin 1895gs Stainless...one or the other a 18.5" or my 16" LTD...not always but often.Hope to get the Marlin SBL when I get back home.My kind of carry gun!!!...well,one of them anyhow:)6rnds on tap with closed action top offs:evil:

With a bit of practice and correct loads to simulate the slow heavy weights,only with light "practice rounds" to help with flinching problems,a person should have no worries with lead off with the heavies when the time comes.:D
 
a 500 SW is not a good enough 50 to brag about.. a 50 BMG rifle is something worth bragging about..
 
This was a dug up from awhile ago. I'm curious how hot a handi rifle can be loaded in .45-70, you would assume really hot because a 500 smith is around 55,000 psi right? I'm not gonna bother to look it up but it is around there. It is a lame cartridge in my book. All the bullets for it bleed energy faster than a .45-70 ever dreamed about, it is a pistol round first where a bc doesn't count for much. As a revolver cartridge it has retarded amounts of recoil. In general, a waste of time.
 
Also...I "think" Maverick223 was referring to the common break action rifles chambered in 45-70.

They are weak...especially the locking mechanism.
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Exactly...thank you for taking the time to read the posts to understand the point that I was trying to make. I love the .45-70 (and most any .40cal+ round, in particular the .458s), but it doesn't make the action any stronger, nor does it need to be for factory loadings (which I personally very much like to best).

I'm curious how hot a handi rifle can be loaded in .45-70, you would assume really hot because a 500 smith is around 55,000 psi right?
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The .500S&W is a 50kPSI cartridge, and the NEF loading for .45-70Govt. is a Class II pressure loading (28kPSI) IIRC.

It is a lame cartridge in my book. All the bullets for it bleed energy faster than a .45-70 ever dreamed about, it is a pistol round first where a bc doesn't count for much. As a revolver cartridge it has retarded amounts of recoil. In general, a waste of time.
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I agree, but it would make a much better rifle cartridge than pistol, however I would rather have the .460S&W for rifle use due to its versatility (.45LC and .454Casull).

:)
 
I could see a good levergun converted to use the .500S&W being very nice in say,Alaska...espesialy coupled with a matching revolver. Low ballistic coefficient would be no worry there,as the large frontal face and raw energy at close range,ie BEAR,is desireable. Backup for fishing,etc. in that part of the world.

I know that I am kind of contradicting myself here:uhoh: but,to me,it is like the .358Win. and the .338Fed....One has better penitration and energy down range(.338Fed.) while the other(.358Win.) has better "slap" damage at close range while still having good penitration...Not quite the same as the .500SWvs. .45-70 but perhaps something to consider:scrutiny:.It comes down to what will they be used for.Again if I were in Alaska fishing,I'd go "cowboy commando" and have both handgun AND rifle use the .500SW----Possibly.

For me,in Afrika it IS the .45-70. Dangerous game=no worries,one shot kills are normal.:D
 
The 45-70 can and will penetrate deeper than a 458 Win Mag (and 460 Weatherby and 458 Lott and...all of them)...this has been proven.
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Ridgerunner

Maybe if you take a soft point 458 WM/Lott or 460 Weatherby Magnum Vs. a "nuclear" 45-70 solid bullet....again, maybe

With both solid not a chance.....otherwise African Hunters would take a 45-70 in the dark continent and leave the exotic calibers at home..

Let's hope H&H doesn't read your post man....:eek::D
 
With both solid not a chance.....otherwise African Hunters would take a 45-70 in the dark continent and leave the exotic calibers at home.
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Actually it is well documented that the faster rounds do not penetrate as far with solids (I imagine they do a little better with well constructed expanding bullets as the .45-70 will run out of steam after a while), however the .45-70 doesn't travel fast enough to induce hydrostatic shock (which typically presents itself at about 2350fps IIRC), and I imagine that has a great deal to do with the cartridge selection for large, dangerous critters. Also, the old loads for the .45-70 (when safari was more popular, and most of the NE cartridges were developed) was fairly anemic by African standards, as the loads were black powder or light nitrocellulose loads. This is no longer the case, and .45-70 is now being used on the dark continent with some success. As for me, I'll stick to ole trusty in a traditional NE flavor, thank you (if I ever went to Africa with the intent to hunt something big and mean that might hunt back).

:)
 
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saturnV...you must not have read Garretts article.

The bullet was a 500 grain solid...in ALL rounds, same bullet.

The 45-70 penetrates more...a lot more.

And its not a "nuclear" load...not by any means. The loads with the right powders(several to choose from...RL7, RL10x, IMR 3031, IMR 4198 and similar) are around 38,000 psi and perfectly safe for a Marlin 1895.
 
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The FACT is that,today,the .45-70 is often loaded to power levels the original .375 H&H could only dream of...To which that original .375 HH did VERY well,obviously!! To say the "modern" .45-70 is incapable of taking anything walking on this planet with regularity is,well,WRONG!!!

With todays powders and projectiles my little .358Win. achieves more penitration than the original 375HH. Not power but penitration,tho' power is VERY close.

FACT!! Not fiction.(read PERIOD)

Please,PLEASE,read up on this,do real world feild tests, but stop spreading untrueths.

I am quite confident that should H&H Hunter---whom I would still like to make the aquaintance of---read this thread,they will agree.Given that is their call name here,I am sure they know the history and capability of the cartridge...
 
Dunno where or how you want to use it, but the 500 S&W is a legal deer cartridge in Indiana, and the 45-70 is illegal. Dunno if other states are as capricious.
 
Dropped H&H a PM considering you guys have been speculating that he would say this or that...I figured I would give him to the opportunity to speak his piece...or not. He might not settle the argument...but he will settle "what he would say".

:)
 
Indiana only allows pistol cartridges of a longer barreled guns, mostly single shots or lever guns. I think the 35 Remington in a contender is legal, because that barrel is too short to get all the good out of that case.

That's why I hunt in Kentucky :D
 
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