MAURICE
Member
I don't own a rifle in either caliber, but if I was doing the buying it would definitely be the .45-70 because of it's versatility and history.
The data that I used was for a 15" T/C barrel, I couldn't find any longer bbl for the 500S&W, though I doubt that velocity would change drastically.When comparing straight on ballistics from reloading books, etc, don't forget to calculate for the longer barrel of the .500 rifle you are looking at. Most all load data is for an 8 3/8" barreled revolver, or maybe 10" test barrel, not a 16-22" rifle barrel...
In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well. OTOH there are high pressure cartridges (bottleneck magnums and such) available in break actions, but these are typically a more stout design than those designed for African cartridges, .45-70s, and shotshells.I would not exactly call the break action rifles "weak".....they can be chambered for monsters such as the Nitro Express family which would put even the strongest 45-70 to shame...
In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well. OTOH there are high pressure cartridges (bottleneck magnums and such) available in break actions, but these are typically a more stout design than those designed for African cartridges, .45-70s, and shotshells.
The express cartridges are loaded to lower pressures. But that doesn't make their terminal ballistics weak
Understood. The 45-70 is one of those cartridges loaded to lower pressures. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I believe that standard factory smokeless 45-70 loads use less pressure than the tropical Express loads. The point of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak
A .500 S&W Magnum is a modern version of the old .50-70 and if you choose to load with rifle powders when shooting in a rifle you will exceed the capabilities of the older .50-70.
That is exactly the point that I was trying to make as well...furthermore velocity has very little to do with pressure. A high pressure cartridge is simply one that has a comparatively small case capacity with regards to its energy (mass * velocity ^ 2). I am pretty sure that no one was saying that any of the NE rounds were anemic in any way.The object of my previous post was to point out that just because the Express cartridges used a lower pressure than the standard it didn't mean they were weak
I did not call NE rounds "weak", only low velocity. Also I called the average .45-70Govt. break action weak, and went on to say that there are other (break actions) are not (as in high pressure magnum rounds). The large African cartridges do not typically have high velocity and therefore do not need a very robust rifle except in the case of the thrust block at the rear of the chamber as the "bolt thrust" is fairly severe with the large boomers.he called them "weak and that the break action rifles are weak....instead the break action can be the strongest of any.
...furthermore velocity has very little to do with pressure.....
The large African cartridges do not typically have high velocity and therefore do not need a very robust rifle
In comparison to the average [.45-70Govt.] actions they are weak, the large African cartridges (NE et al) are very low pressure and are relatively weak as well.
have spent a good deal of time in Africa and personaly seen a can attest to seeing the "little 45-70" out of Marlin 1895s kill and penitrate further than even the vaulted 460 Weatherby...repeatedly and side by side in two cases on two seperate elephants
Careful there...358 Win and 338 Fed. have more velocity at lower pressure than 308 Win does with the same weight 180gr projectile and same case size.
With regards to the same case size AND caliber of bore, that is true, HOWEVER you can have a very large, low pressure cartridge. For example the .416 Rigby is an enormous case at relatively low pressure (about 47kpsi) with ballistics comparable to the new .416Ruger which has a much smaller case volume and higher pressure (55kpsi). If you have enough powder in the case you can make it fly as fast as you like, with as high or low of pressure if you like. A high pressure cartridge will have a shorter action (typical), and be more efficient. A low pressure cartridge will be less apt to stick in the chamber, will have a greater barrel life, and will be more forgiving with regards to reloading. Both have their place and advantages, there is a notch in my gun safe for a few of each.saturno_v said:Again, you gotta be kidding right??
Velocity has everything to do with pressure....you can have a higher pressure round with a smaller case capacity being slower than a lower pressure one with significant higher capacity (for example comparing the 308 to a 30-06) but if you have two rounds of identical or nearly identical case capacity and one is higher pressure, the high pressure one will always develop higher velocity.....higher pressure = higher temperature = higher sound speed in that gas = faster pressure wave propagation.......ballistic 101...
NO, I am saying that of the actions chambered in .45-70Govt. (no other cartridge), the break action is amongst the weakest designs. With regards to dangerous game doubles, don't believe that the size of the cartridge requires a more robust rifle, the design of the rifle is primarily a result of the pressure of the cartridge, however the trust block or bolt must be designed based upon the energy of the round and not the pressure. Basically the breach must be thicker for a larger caliber cartridge (and/or larger base) at the same pressure due to the surface area. Also, as I have stated in an earlier post, there are break action 7mm Magnums (as well as other magnum offerings) that are in no way weak, as they operate at high pressure.saturno_v said:So to me you were implying that the break action rifles are weaker than the average 45-70 action...which is not true.
With regards to the same case size AND caliber of bore, that is true...
However when the values (pressure and bullet weight) are very close, the different overboring ratio between the different cartridges may be a factor...
I have little doubts, most doubles are well over-designed...as they should be. I wouldn't want a double .470NE to have any trouble even if the pressures are a little high, the weather is hot and sticky, and I am staring down an animal that wishes me a bad day...over-design is a good thing, but not typically the case with break action .45-70 rifles (generally cheap single shots not designed or intended for the pursuit of dangerous game).The same double rifle models chambered for the Nitro Express rounds usually are also chambered for the 375 H&H and 458 WM which are high pressure cartridges.