45-70 Relaoding questions

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Handshaker

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I am scratching my head trying to understand this. When reloading 45-70 with 300gr lead bullets the Hornady site says a 45-70 300gr with 14grs of Trail boss has a CUP of 19,400 and the same load with 30gr of H4198 only has 14,400 CUP. I would think the 30gr of H4198 would have higher pressures than 14gr of TB.
thanks
 
Using CUP as a pressure measure was replaced by PSI for a lot of good reasons, but one of the biggest is being able to measure WHERE and WHEN the pressure peaks. TB is not just a much faster powder than H4198, it's also bulkier. In that massive .45-70 case it blows around and burns even faster, pushing the pressure spike up quickly before exhausting itself just as quickly and dropping pressure. The copper plug doesn't know that and just exhibits signs of peak pressure. Look for some PSI data and compare the loading data. Trail Boss is designed to mimic black powder burn rates and pressures but, it is still nitro and nitro reacts to pressure differently than black powder.
 
That said, TailBoss and 4198 are totally different powders. Moreover
TrailBoss is very fast -- a little builds pressure far higher/quicker,
and burns out faster

That was the point I was going to make... and I believe it's above the PSI vs CUP variations. IMR (or H...) 4198, or even IMR4227 are pretty fast for rifle powders, as soon as you start dipping into true pistol powders (Unique, RedDot, TrailBoss, etc) you really have to watch your pressure... because of the fast pressure peak.
 
With a RCBS Lead 310 grain bullet sitting on top of 30 grains of 4198 gives me 12,588 PSI, muzzle velocity of 1486.7 fps. Max pressure is listed at 31,908 PSI for 45-70 in Gordons Reloading Tool. I don't have Trail Boss as an included powder to compare. Gordons doesn't show it. Shooters reference has a load for Trail Boss of 14 to 16.5 grains with respectively 19,400 psi and 20,900psi. Velocities are 1199 and 1285 fps respectively.
 
With a RCBS Lead 310 grain bullet sitting on top of 30 grains of 4198 gives me 12,588 PSI, muzzle velocity of 1486.7 fps. Max pressure is listed at 31,908 PSI for 45-70 in Gordons Reloading Tool. I don't have Trail Boss as an included powder to compare. Gordons doesn't show it. Shooters reference has a load for Trail Boss of 14 to 16.5 grains with respectively 19,400 psi and 20,900psi. Velocities are 1199 and 1285 fps respectively.
Watch what you use for inputs because there are 3 tiers for 45-70 and things can go very badly if you choose the wrong one!!!!
 
Watch what you use for inputs because there are 3 tiers for 45-70 and things can go very badly if you choose the wrong one!!!!
Hmmm... I wonder if black powder cartridge makes it really FOUR tiers?
Anyway, very fast powders like Trail Boss are pistol powders with some usefulness in cast rifle loads (quoting Hodgdon, here); they are NOT rifle powders with plenty of pistol data, too. 2400 and IMR 4227 are fast rifle powders which are now more useful in pistols than rifles; but are still useful in some rifle loads.
 
Out of curiosity @Handshaker are you loading for an actual trapdoor rifle where you do need to keep the pressure under 17k?
I did find a calculator for CUP to PSI and Visa Versa https://calculator.academy/cup-to-psi-calculator/#f1p1|f2p0
I am loading for my American Derringer Alaskan Survival in 45-70 but i also load for my BFR,Ruger No 1 and Marlin 1895GS all in 45-70. I will be making up some shotshell loads for the derringer and BFR as well. I have already loaded some shotshells in my BFR previously with 12.7grs of 2400 with no 8 lead shot and a trimmed 410 wad with hot glue gun the end shut instead of crimping and ruining my brass, It was very effective on rattlers. American Derringer told me the limit is 12k PSI, so i was converting to CUP because all of the load data out there is in CUP.
 
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I did find a calculator for CUP to PSI and Visa Versa https://calculator.academy/cup-to-psi-calculator/#f1p1|f2p0
I am loading for my American Derringer Alaskan Survival in 45-70 but i also load for my BFR,Ruger No 1 and Marlin 1895GS all in 45-70. I will be making up some shotshell loads for the derringer and BFR as well. I have already loaded some shotshells in my BFR previously with 12.7grs of 2400 with no 8 lead shot and a trimmed 410 wad with hot glue gun the end shut instead of crimping and ruining my brass, It was very effective on rattlers. American Derringer told me the limit is 12k PSI, so i was converting to CUP because all of the load data out there is in CUP.
Okie dokey. Glad you answered your own questions. Let us know how it works out for you.
 
Three levels: (1)1873 Springfield, (2) modern lever action [Winchester, Marlin, NOT Sharps falling block], (3) Ruger #1. My pet load is 31 grains of Accurate Arms 5744 with 400 gr plain base or 420 grain gas checked bullet. I had a partial can of AA 2015 left over. Used the starting charge and loaded 55 rounds. The AA 2015 load was 250 FPS faster than AA 5744 load. I would describe the 250 fps velocity increase as PAINFUL to shoot with 420 gr bullet. Very accurate load but still painful to shoot.

You need to watch muzzle velocity and pressure values when changing powder. My rifle, Taylor's Arms Quigley Sharp's replica, will not shoot bullets lighter than 400 grains accurately.
 
The point of trailboss as I understand it is to have a high initial pressure to obturate the projectile and seal the bore (ideal for cast bullets). That initial pressure spike last only a very short period of time and the powder burns fast. It's the duration of that pressure that pushes a bullet to higher velocities , imr4198 is slower and maintains that pressure longer, that results in higher velocity. It's not pressure that results in recoil, it's the velocity the projectile exits the muzzle with and the weight of the bullet. The amount of pressure remaining in the barrel when the bullet exits is what produces most of the sound from shooting - like popping a champagne cork. Faster burning powders don't have a lot of pressure remaining by the time a bullet exits, slow burning powders may still be producing expanding gas.

As far as the 45-70 derringer , I'd use the fastest powder that's appropriate , otherwise fireballs and unburned powder will likely result, erratic performance too.

I may have this incorrect but it's my understanding of it , I've got an open mind and if anyone disagrees please educate me.
 
When you fire that 45-70 derringer, have your Chiropractor (immediate relief) and Orthopedic Surgen (surgical repair) on speed dial to get immediate medical attention.
 
As always this site is a plethora of knowledge and I always am learning. No pain no gain, lol. The most "jumpy" pistol I own is a wichita arms break action silhouette pistol in 7mm-int-r. Full power loads make this thing very difficult to hold on to. 11gr of trail boss with a speer 100gr bullet make this very pleasant to shoot. I rarely shoot full power unless i want to reach out there.
Thanks!
 
The point of trailboss as I understand it is to have a high initial pressure to obturate the projectile and seal the bore (ideal for cast bullets). That initial pressure spike last only a very short period of time and the powder burns fast. It's the duration of that pressure that pushes a bullet to higher velocities , imr4198 is slower and maintains that pressure longer, that results in higher velocity. It's not pressure that results in recoil, it's the velocity the projectile exits the muzzle with and the weight of the bullet. The amount of pressure remaining in the barrel when the bullet exits is what produces most of the sound from shooting - like popping a champagne cork. Faster burning powders don't have a lot of pressure remaining by the time a bullet exits, slow burning powders may still be producing expanding gas.

As far as the 45-70 derringer , I'd use the fastest powder that's appropriate , otherwise fireballs and unburned powder will likely result, erratic performance too.

I may have this incorrect but it's my understanding of it , I've got an open mind and if anyone disagrees please educate me.
I learned the faster the powder the sharper the recoil, the higher the volume of powder the larger the recoil energy. Using the same bullet. Maybe over simple but it's how I explain it.
 
I learned the faster the powder the sharper the recoil, the higher the volume of powder the larger the recoil energy. Using the same bullet. Maybe over simple but it's how I explain it.
I'm not sure but I know what you mean. Recoil is subjective , to varying degrees though. I have used faster powders in 45/70 , turned out to not be the greatest but the recoil was different. Could have been a little more abrupt or sharper. Tough to say, just different.
Trailboss is fast and does produce higher pressures then it's performance would suggest but the recoil is minimal. I'm not much of a scientist but it seems like from looking at the data and having used lots of trailboss , pressure and recoil aren't directly connected. Of course I could be wrong .

I've just been using imr4198 for 45/70 and pretty much stick with 405 grain bullets. Down at the low end of trapdoor loads with 4198 it feels only a little stronger then trailboss, makes sense because it's only a couple hundred fps more. Up at the top of modern lever action loads 4198 can be punishing if shooting from a bench. Somewhere in between has been a good general use load, kind of just left it there and don't use trailboss for that cartridge much unless I've got something specific to load light for.
 
I'm not sure but I know what you mean. Recoil is subjective , to varying degrees though. I have used faster powders in 45/70 , turned out to not be the greatest but the recoil was different. Could have been a little more abrupt or sharper. Tough to say, just different.
Trailboss is fast and does produce higher pressures then it's performance would suggest but the recoil is minimal. I'm not much of a scientist but it seems like from looking at the data and having used lots of trailboss , pressure and recoil aren't directly connected. Of course I could be wrong .

I've just been using imr4198 for 45/70 and pretty much stick with 405 grain bullets. Down at the low end of trapdoor loads with 4198 it feels only a little stronger then trailboss, makes sense because it's only a couple hundred fps more. Up at the top of modern lever action loads 4198 can be punishing if shooting from a bench. Somewhere in between has been a good general use load, kind of just left it there and don't use trailboss for that cartridge much unless I've got something specific to load light for.
I shoot steel with a cast 350 and trail boss and it's basically a mouse fart from that gun. Fun times...
 
Out of curiosity @Handshaker are you loading for an actual trapdoor rifle where you do need to keep the pressure under 17k?

I read 18k, but like your number better. I came across a load over on loaddata.com that is for a VV powder (don't remember what one) that gives a pressure in the 12's. I have not tried it yet, everything I have done so far is in the 14's and I have not had good results so far. Last time out my chrono was being stupid....I was this close to putting it out of my misery.
 
QuickLoad can be pretty handy in instances like this... one of the features is a pressure graph, you can see not only the peak pressure, but where it is in the curve. Interesting stuff.

My load of 30grn IMR4198 under a 405grn cast, according to QL, taps 15K PSI; I get nearly 1300fps out of my 32" Pedersoli.

One of the old classic pistol powder loads is 15grn Unique under a 405grn cast, pressure there taps 25K, with almost identical velocity. I have loaded this load, and while it's a frugal load, I don't like anything faster than 2400/IMR4227 in rifle.

As was discussed, 14grn TrailBoss burns in about the first INCH of barrel, with a Pmax at about 1/2" of barrel... so, yea, it burns and peaks quickly. It's one of the reasons TB will go sideways if compressed... which is, generally, a no-no with TB. According to QL, 14grn TB gives 20K PSI.
 
As was discussed, 14grn TrailBoss burns in about the first INCH of barrel, with a Pmax at about 1/2" of barrel... so, yea, it burns and peaks quickly. It's one of the reasons TB will go sideways if compressed... which is, generally, a no-no with TB. According to QL, 14grn TB gives 20K PSI.


Are you sure thats 20k PSI? I get 19400 CUP not PSI according to Hodgdon's website.
According to the calculator link I posted, that's 11508 PSI
 
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I read 18k, but like your number better. I came across a load over on loaddata.com that is for a VV powder (don't remember what one) that gives a pressure in the 12's. I have not tried it yet, everything I have done so far is in the 14's and I have not had good results so far. Last time out my chrono was being stupid....I was this close to putting it out of my misery.

I think 17k is what Lyman's 4th Cast handbook says for trapdoor, could be wrong though, was going from memory.

Was asking OP because if they're not loading for an actual trapdoor was going to say don't really worry about. Now that I know he's got that derringer with a pressure cap of course it is of concern. BTW @Handshaker did that thing come with a book that says watch out on what you load in it? I would think a decent amount of factory 45-70 would be pressing close to that envelope.

Personally I like my 45-70 with 405gr somewhere under 1100ish FPS. Easier on the shoulder and more fun shooting. Since I'm nowhere near Ruger #1 levels of powder with I4198/I4227 I don't really even think about the pressure levels, loading for my Henry. It will take it before my should says, "Nooooooo thank you", haha.
 
It did not come with instructions, I called american derringer and they sent me a manual. It does say 12k PSI in the manual but thats it. BTW many youtubers have posted videos on this including Kentucky ballistics. Scott was shooting full power lever evolution out of his, I don't think i will be doing that, but who knows I might try it if they are within specs. Mine was built in 1986. Those are even a little painfull in my BFR and its much bigger. I have shot them from my Ruger no1 and Marlin 1895gs, they kick quite a bit but not painful out of a rifle.
 
Are you sure thats 20k PSI? I get 19400 CUP not PSI according to Hodgdon's website.
According to the calculator link I posted, that's 11508 PSI

That's what QL tells me, and that is cross-referenced with other data that supports it.

I would be very careful with that calculator... there is no way 19400 CUP translates to only 11508 PSI. FWIW, if you take comparable loads, with something like the .30-30, look at reference data with a mix of PSI and CUP. You will see similar charges measured in CUP to be lower than similar loads measured in PSI, not higher.
 
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