45-70 Replica Action Strength

[GJeffB]

posted here and elsewhere, as a courtesy ...

Evening All,
Thanks to those who have followed my retrogression from hotshot semiautos and AR to the new Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk. The next itch is a replica 1800's big bore, tang sighted rifle. Specs to follow in a different post. Question of the day is about strength of various actions. Understanding, please that I'm not trying to replicate .458 WM, nor Ruger #1, etc.

Specifically: I *think* i understand the falling block is the "strongest" action. Followed closely by a falling block, then modern, or equaled by modern lever. How close am I to rating actions, regardless of loadings?

I'll follow up with specific makers/importers {Pedersoli,Taylor, Sharps, etc) inquiries next.

Thanks,
-jb, learning big mouths short and long

 

[Jim Watson]

Falling block closely followed by a falling block, sure.
I rate the Winchester Single Shot "Highwall" tops among the 19th century designs.
But period Winchester advertising credits "the strong Sharps breechblock."

There are some less common falling blocks I would put ahead of the Remington Rolling Block.
You can do a lot with a good lever action but the various single shots lead.

 

[Charlie98]

I have a Pedersoli 1885 High Wall in .45-70, it is rated for Trapdoor loads... max 28K CUP. I don't run them that high, because I don't like punishment, and my goal is to keep pressure under 15K PSI, or thereabouts. You need to evaluate your goal... what do you expect to shoot, and how?

I had a Marlin 1895 lever-action for a while... I loaded up some test loads with starting 'lever-action' loads of IMR4895 and IMR4064. I fired about 10 of them.... and wound up pulling almost 100 cartridges, the recoil was that brutal. Yes, they would be great for a hunting load, but I loaded these for a weekend of shooting steel. When I got my 1885, I loaded up some simple ladder loads with a 405grn cast bullet... with those I was able to find my recoil threshold, and a good performing load for the rifle (for what I intend to do with it... shoot steel at distance) which wound up being well below what the rifle was capable of.

Trying to figure out which rifle has the strongest action is a little foolhardy. Not that strength isn't a qualifier, but I would submit that any modern replica has reasonable strength for what you want to shoot... outside of... .458WM or #1 loads.

 

[dh1633pm]

I too would like to know the answer or maybe not an answer, but a confirmation. I have an 1985G. I hardly ever run hot loads in the rifle. The hot loads certainly smack you up side the face. Some loads hurt more than others. Had it out last Saturday for some fun. A heavier rifle with a strong action would certainly help tame recoil a bit. I also have a Trap Door so I have to be careful on what 45-70 I have laying about. A confirmation would let me know that I am not going to destroy something (myself included) by shooting something a little more potent from a particular action. Again, not talking hot loads.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't worry much about strength, I haven't shot anything but black in my Winchester and Browning/Miroku in a long time.
I do consider recoil, the Winchester is .38-55 and the Browning is .40-65. A .40 400gr at 1200fps is a lot more comfortable than a .45 500, but a .38 335 at 1100 would not always knock down the metallic silhouette ram

 

[GJeffB]

Thanks for the comments and confirmation, all.
I may be a lot of things, but foolhardy isn't one. It's more a matter of belt and suspenders. If I determine the action I want I can sort of back into the specifications, make models, style that I want to pursue. Different folks start their search in different ways. Perhaps the most comforting is that "any modern replica has reasonable strength for what you want to shoot ..." Given that, and being aware of the various load data tiers, I can pretty much move on with the search.

Thanks again

-jb

 

[Charlie98]

I may be a lot of things, but foolhardy isn't one.

Poor choice of words from me, sorry. I see a lot of questions posted here about how strong an action is, because they want affirmation that it's OK to ramp up a load (think .45 Colt, for example.) You stated specifically that wasn't your intention.

 

[tark]

Action strength is dependent on many factors, including the choice of the proper alloy and proper hear treatment. The Rolling block is a strong design, but not as strong as a falling block. Remington never chambered their rolling blocks in 30-06. That cartridge was just a bit too much for the design to handle.

This is a rolling block I made years ago, out of 4140. It was professionally heat treated to RC40. It ate a German 7.62X63 proof round that was on the high side of 80,000 PSI. Because of the quality of the materials used and the proper hardening of the steel, it easily handles factory 30-06 loads. There is no stretching of the case, less than .001" expansion and the case can be resized with your little finger. There is no substitute for quality materials and proper manufacturing techniques.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

As long as we're limiting discussion to modern production Italian and American replicas, I'm inclined to agree that the falling blocks would probably survive higher pressures better than rolling blocks in a destructive test. However, modern product liability concerns probably make this a moot point, unless the actions are deliberately abused.

FWIW, there is an article titled Anatomy of a Black Powder Blowup (C. Rodney James, Guns Illustrated 1996) that discusses how, in the rare event of a rolling block action coming unzipped, its failure mode is actually much more dangerous to the shooter than the otherwise weaker trapdoor action.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

This is a rolling block I made years ago, out of 4140. It was professionally heat treated to RC40. It ate a German 7.62X63 proof round that was on the high side of 80,000 PSI. Because of the quality of the materials used and the proper hardening of the steel, it easily handles factory 30-06 loads. There is no stretching of the case, less than .001" expansion and the case can be resized with your little finger. There is no substitute for quality materials and proper manufacturing techniques.

You do some nice work!

 

[Jim Watson]

FWIW, there is an article titled Anatomy of a Black Powder Blowup (C. Rodney James, Guns Illustrated 1996) that discusses how, in the rare event of a rolling block action coming unzipped, its failure mode is actually much more dangerous to the shooter than the otherwise weaker trapdoor action.

I remember that article. It takes serious or multiple stupids to blow up a Rolling Block but if you manage, it is a grenade.
Then there was the Danish Rolling Block that let go and killed a man.

 

[Goosey]

Some of the replica manufacturers are conservative with their maximum recommended loads. Pedersoli rates their Sharps replicas to 2000 bar, or 29,000 psi, pretty much SAAMI-spec. But Shiloh says their Sharps will handle anything a Ruger No. 1 will. And then there are enthusiasts who probably push things too far.

 

[GJeffB]

Charlie98 said

Poor choice of words from me, sorry.

You are a gentleman, sir and I appreciate that. Know that no offense was taken

DeLaurent said

As long as we're limiting discussion to modern production Italian and American replicas, I'm inclined to agree that the falling blocks would probably survive higher pressures ... [and more]

Yes. I'm a short guy and no way my pockets are deep enough for fine originals
I have no intentions of "learning" the limits of either action types. Having received great information here and elsewhere, I'm thinking about either https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020646027?pid=925261 or https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020646663?pid=847479
It's going to be difficult discerning the $500 benefit. The Sharps replica is falling block (preferred), pistol grip (*preferred*), and double triggers (most preferred).The Creedmoor appears to have tang sight, the Sharps will require an add-on $ight.

Narrowed to actions by you fine folk, comments on my next conundrum welcome.

-jb, nearing the big bore shoulder fired

 

[Jim Watson]

The Rolling Block cost less then, it costs less now. How bad do you want those Sharps features?

For $2000 I would get the C. Sharps 1875 with a light hand on the option list, sights and single set trigger only. Buy American.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/36/Model-1875-Target-and-Sporting-Rifle.html

 

[JeffG]

I limit my loads for my Lyman Ideal 45/70 (Pedersoli) Sharps to 20,000psi. They are not designed to compete with Ruger #1's or the like.

 

[DocRock]

I love my Pedersoli RB. But I only ever shoot the sacred black powder with it, so I have no worries, concerns, or knowledge of pressure issues with it. Though, my experiments with very high compression 73 grs loads and the 535 grs Postel must have had some pressure.

 

[Goosey]

I limit my loads for my Lyman Ideal 45/70 (Pedersoli) Sharps to 20,000psi. They are not designed to compete with Ruger #1's or the like.

Pedersoli themselves won't recommend it, and they are not top-end Ruger No.1 loads, but, for example, Buffalo Bore and Garrett Cartridge say their .45-70 "+P" loads, which far exceed SAAMI standard, are safe in Pedersoli Sharps:

Garrett:
"THIS AMMO IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN THE FOLLOWING MODERN FIREARMS: MARLIN, HENRY, SHILOH SHARPS, PEDERSOLI SHARPS, ENCORE, NEF, H&R, BROWNING, RUGER, AND WINCHESTER RIFLES. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THIS AMMO BE FIRED IN ANY TRAPDOOR SPRINGFIELDS OR ANY OTHER FIREARMS NOT LISTED HERE!"

Buffalo Bore:
"Our 45-70 ammunition is externally identical to SAAMI spec 45-70 ammo, but internally it generates FAR more power and pressure. Its use should be limited to the following firearms:

All Marlin 1895 (1895 Marlins are all model 336 actions, chambered in 45-70) iterations made since 1972, all Browning 1885 and 1886 copies, Rossi Rio Grande, New England Arms Handi Rifle, T/C Encore, ALL falling block actions made of modern steel such as Ruger #1 and #3, Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps, Henry Lever Action Rifles, all Winchester 1886 iterations made since 1915, CVA Centerfire Rifles and all Siamese Mauser bolt actions."

 

[dave951]

Generally speaking- falling blocks are strongest with the caveat that metallurgy determines actual strength. Pedersoli and other makers of falling block replicas do NOT proof their guns for high pressure loads. Keep to pressures appropriate to black powder original loads and you’ll be ok.

 

[Charlie98]

Yes. I'm a short guy and no way my pockets are deep enough for fine originals

Have you discounted the 1885 action and replicas? I consider them the best of both worlds... I'm not necessarily a fan of the Sharps (although I'll acknowledge their quality,) nor the roller (just not for me,) the 1885 was the clear winner.

Another rifle to consider is the Uberti, another Italian. Generally speaking, Ubertis are a little less on the pocketbook than Pedersolis.

If you decide to hold out for a genuine Sharps (and there are 2 'Sharps' builders...) sometimes they have them posted for sale on their website, extras they produced, or orders that were cancelled. As Jim Watson suggests, keep your extras to a minimum, and you can still wind up with a very nice rifle.

http://csharpsarms.com/

https://shilohrifle.com/

To say the single-shot rifle is a rabbit hole you can disappear down would be an understatement.

FWIW, and as you mentioned, don't forget about the tang sight... good ones carry a pretty hefty price tag, but are worth it if you plan to shoot long distance.

I threw my hat into the single-shot ring with a used Pedersoli 1885 in .45-70. It already came with decent sights, so I didn't have to go through the agony of figuring out which sights to get.



Mine only has a single set trigger... which I actually like very much. I paid less than $1500 for mine, all said and done, so there are reasonable values to be had if you are willing to shop used.

 

[Jim Watson]

That Pedersoli 1885 was highly thought of when I was shooting BPCR in the noughts.
It was said to be built on a Uberti action (and rumor had it that Uberti used Pedersoli Sharps actions.)
The US rep for Pedersoli was very active on the gun boards and offered a lot of advice on the care and feeding of their rifles. There were even bullet molds optimized for the Pedersoli chamber throat and bore.

I know the subject is .45-70 but Pedersoli took a chance and made .38-55 barrels with a 14" twist for 350 gr bullets. My rebored Winchester has a 15" twist for the 335 gr bullet and the Pedersoli could only be a step ahead of that. It was said to even knock down 46 lb rams at 500 meters, which mine would not do dependably.

 

[Charlie98]

I know the subject is .45-70 but Pedersoli took a chance and made .38-55 barrels with a 14" twist for 350 gr bullets.

They also made a very small run of 1885's in .348WCF. I had my eyeball on one, and it sold about a week before I had the coin to buy it. *sigh*

 

[Jim Watson]

I recently saw a picture of a Uberti 1885 repro in .303 British, with short ebony tipped foreend in the English style.

I once read of period Rolling Blocks in 8mm Lebel.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Have you discounted the 1885 action and replicas?

If I could find one at the right price and a chambering I liked (and assuming I had the scratch), I think a modern 1885 clone would be an excellent choice.

I've yet to own one, but I've played with a few of the Italian copies in gunshops and their actions seem much slicker to operate than my Ruger No.1 and No.3. I passed on a lightly-used one in 32-40 that still haunts me.

 

[tark]

In the 1870s the Army, or somebody, decided to blow up a rolling block. They filled the barrel to halfway with powder and then proceeded to jam 45 caliber lead balls in the remainder of the barrel, all the way to the muzzle. It held!!!! Then they tried the same thing with a trapdoor.......with the SAME RESULTS

I can't remember where I read this, but the trapdoor action may not be as weak as we think...... Has anyone out there heard of this?

 

[tark]

I recently saw a picture of a Uberti 1885 repro in .303 British, with short ebony tipped fore end in the English style.

I once read of period Rolling Blocks in 8mm Lebel.

Rolling blocks were chambered in 7mm Mauser, 8mm Lebel, 30-40 Krag, 7.65 Argentine, .30 Remington, 30-30, .32 Winchester Special .303 British, 7.62X54 Russian and a host of black powder rounds. This list is for the large #1 actions, both military and sporting. I'm a little suspicious about that .30 Remington chambering, since I got this list from Wiki, who are sometimes wrong.

They said the gun was chambered in 30-06 as well, which it never was.