45-70 Replica Action Strength

[DocRock]

Rolling blocks were chambered in 7mm Mauser, 8mm Lebel, 30-40 Krag, 7.65 Argentine, .30 Remington, 30-30, .32 Winchester Special .303 British, 7.62X54 Russian and a host of black powder rounds. This list is for the large #1 actions, both military and sporting. I'm a little suspicious about that .30 Remington chambering, since I got this list from Wiki, who are sometimes wrong.

They said the gun was chambered in 30-06 as well, which it never was.

That's not true. I saw a very nice one that some guy on here made that was chambered in 30-06

 

[GJeffB]

For $2000 I would get the C. Sharps 1875 with a light hand on the option list, sights and single set trigger only. Buy American.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/36/Model-1875-Target-and-Sporting-Rifle.html

Hmmm. I wandered around the C Sharps site, saw $6-7k and kept walking. With your link, you're correct. I could easily be at $2k, perhaps even less by getting a separately purchased tank sight.

-jb, eyeing the piggy bank

 

[GJeffB]

Charlie98 sez

Have you discounted the 1885 action and replicas? I consider them the best of both worlds...

Not at all. Certainly a consideration

To say the single-shot rifle is a rabbit hole you can disappear down would be an understatement.

That understatement is a huge understatement

-jb, loving the hunt

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

They said the gun was chambered in 30-06 as well, which it never was.

Not from the factory anyway -- however Bannerman did rebarrel a batch for resale using surplus '03 barrels:

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/bannermans-rolling-block-conversions.317350/

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/16988003

Shooting one of these with a full power 30-06 load is probably about as smart as bobbing for french fries.

 

[Charlie98]

Shooting one of these with a full power 30-06 load is probably about as smart as bobbing for french fries.

So many people equate the replica falling block action to the Ruger #1, understandably, thinking the strength should be the same given modern metallurgy and building technique.

 

[Jim Watson]

But how much stronger is a Ruger than a Shiloh or C. Sharps repro Sharps or Winchester?
As the gunzine writer once said when asked about barrel life, you would have to ruin several nice rifles to find out and I don't have the time, budget, or inclination to do that.

 

[StrawHat]

Here is a thread on trapdoor strength and rolling block strength.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?61694-Trapdoor-Strength


Kevin

 

[Charlie98]

Narrowed to actions by you fine folk, comments on my next conundrum welcome.

I was over at my local Cabelas (Allen, TX) today... they had 3 Pedersoli Sharps on the shelf. The least of which was $1599... it was a nice rifle without all the embellishments of the higher priced rifles. The other 2 next to it were $2K+ I thought that was pretty reasonable for a Sharps replica...

 

[GJeffB]

x-Posted
Resolved
Ya know, for those of you that partake in fine cigars, these forums are a lot like hanging out in a cigar bar with a Zino Platinum and chatting. Decision made, with the input from all. I got lucky at the local (very small town) Walmart and scored RCBS 3 die set .45-70 and the appropriate shell holder. From there to a local gun shop to update their status with MidWayUSA.com as instructed. Then home and online ordered https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021143987?pid=662357

After a LOT of research I got close to a C Sharps. 10+/- months, $1795 minimally optioned, plus 8.25 Fed Excise Tax (generally included in all other firearms prices), plus state tax, plus shipping ... out of my reach. Fine rifle nonetheless. Then came a nice rolling block with the requisite tang sight. After considering, I just *wanted* the falling block. Tang sight to follow, lots of options. More research puts the quality hierarchy approximately Pedersoli, Cimarron (sometimes interchangeable) then Uberti, on down.

The Cimarron has at least a ladder adjustable rear sight which will get me entry level lead lobbing. Dies secured, and THAT was a search. 100 cast 300gr ordered and on the way. Brass and LR primers will be a challenge. Powder. Searching my manuals, and online, I've settled on unobtainium H4198 and 5744. Why? Best combination of accurate and low recoil/pressure for 300gr and 405 gr loads that I can discern. As always, the hunt is almost the best part. Once the dust settles I'll report results.

Fire up a stogie on me, I appreciate the help.

-jb, puffing contentedly

 

[jmorris]

Specs to follow in a different post. Question of the day is about strength of various actions.

In order to answer the question with accuracy, the specifics have to be in this post.

Most manuals are available online and you can read what he manufacture has to say about their product. Most of them read along the lines of, we make them better than the original out of better materials but we still copied a less than ideal design for strength so don’t load them like a good design...

https://www.uberti-usa.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-manuals/manual_trapdoor_v1.pdf



That puts you over the 25,000 cup most book trapdoor loads stay under but well below the 40,000cup of 1895 or “Marlin” loads, then there are “Ruger” loads above them.

 

[Charlie98]

The Cimarron has at least a ladder adjustable rear sight which will get me entry level lead lobbing. Dies secured, and THAT was a search. 100 cast 300gr ordered and on the way. Brass and LR primers will be a challenge. Powder. Searching my manuals, and online, I've settled on unobtainium H4198 and 5744. Why? Best combination of accurate and low recoil/pressure for 300gr and 405 gr loads that I can discern. As always, the hunt is almost the best part. Once the dust settles I'll report results.

It sounds like the road is laid out for you... good job.

Question: You said RCBS dies... are they Cowboy dies, or standard dies? If they are standard dies, you should look into something like the Lyman M-die to flare the case neck for the bullet. It works a little different than a standard flare die, which is fine for jacketed bullets, not so much for cast.

Brass won't be that hard to find... it's out there, even in retail locations like Cabelas, etc. I don't know how 'southern' you are in CO, but I don't think you will have a problem there, even if it's a trip up to the Springs or even Denver.

Bullets shouldn't be too big of a problem, either, there are enough online sources for cast. Personally, I like the 405's, I haven't had very good luck with LaserCast 350's for some reason compared to the 405's.

You picked the correct powders... although I'm an IMR guy, so I use IMR4198, not H, but that is a matter of preference, as is AA5744. I tried AA5744, it works, but not any better than IMR4198, for me anyway, and I use IMR4198 in my other cast rifle cartridges with excellent results.

Before you make a decision on the rear sights... shoot your rifle a bit, how you shoot it, and what distances you shoot may very well determine if you need a sight, and 'how much' sight you need.

 

[GJeffB]

Thanks Charlie. In order:

You said RCBS dies... are they Cowboy dies, or standard dies?

aargh, standard. Waay south Colorado, 30 miles from the NM border. Local Walmart, 130 miles to Pueblo, 160 CO Springs, 4+ hours to Dudver. Sometimes ya gots to takes whats ya gets

Brass is indeed hard to find. Usual online retailers, especially Starline, out. Happy to have scored 50 at Cabelas, delivered. Bullets are sketchy but found 200 rea$onable as a starter. I just don't want to lay in a supply of 500 XYZs until I see what shoots well.

Before you make a decision on the rear sights... shoot your rifle a bit

Sights. ugh. I *almost* pulled the trigger on a set of long range tang sights with globe front for a few (well, a lot) of $$$. Wait. Shoot the standard sights, then decide. Not my first rodeo.

I appreciate all thoughts. I'm pretty confident my choice will be ok as an entry level bigmouth falling block. More to come.

-jb, dipping his toe

 

[Gordon]

I would get a Browning 1885 used like this one :
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883759243
there are quite a few on Gun Broker for more or less but this one looks nice and has LR sights.

They are very strong and I used the heavy "Marlin only" loads for years in the 80s with the one I had. I recommend them highly. They were offered in .300 Magnum calibers on that action and I had one in 7mm mag and others.Zero problems and incredibly built !

Or the Ruger #1 is actually a modern copy of the Farquharson action of the 19th century is to my mind is authentic. , alot of them rebarrelled to heavy 45-70 with tang LR sights floating around out there.

 

[Charlie98]

I would get a Browning 1885 used like this one :
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883759243
there are quite a few on Gun Broker for more or less but this one looks nice and has LR sights.

That IS a nice setup! Those Lee Shavers are the same basic sights I have on my Pedersoli. I really wanted a Browning, but couldn't find anything at the time...

aargh, standard. Waay south Colorado, 30 miles from the NM border. Local Walmart, 130 miles to Pueblo, 160 CO Springs, 4+ hours to Dudver. Sometimes ya gots to takes whats ya gets

Brass is indeed hard to find. Usual online retailers, especially Starline, out. Happy to have scored 50 at Cabelas, delivered. Bullets are sketchy but found 200 rea$onable as a starter. I just don't want to lay in a supply of 500 XYZs until I see what shoots well.

There are a lot of different sources for brass, not just Starline. I think half my stash is WW. I will admit, availability is spotty, but if you are stuck looking online, I would setup 'in stock notifications' on about 10 different vendors and wait. Same with bullets.

Bullets can be a little tricky. I've been lucky... my Pedersoli takes standard .459" cast bullets. It really likes the gas checked bullets from Montana Bullet Works, but they are expensive... you do get what you pay for, however. My last batch of 500 I got straight from Oregon Trail/LaserCast (same company, now owned by RimRock...) via their website, along with a good supply of .41MAG bullets, too. You can order sample packs of bullets from them, too, to 'test drive' them if you wish.

Don't forget your M-die... https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011246697

 

[Jim Watson]

The 1885 Browning that Gordon shows is a Miroku made cosmetic copy of the Winchester Single Shot. Very different inside.
Mine is the BPCR model, with American Badger .40-65 barrel. I traded off their tang and globe sights for Baldwins like I have on my real Winchester. It is a heavy gun I would not take hunting but it is more comfortable on the BPCR range with 50-70 shots fired in a day.
The one Gordon shows appears to be the Traditional Hunter dressed up with better sights and a pewter foreend tip that sure did not come out of the Miroku plant.
You have to be careful with Lee Shaver sights. His $400 sights are about as good as any, but his Economy Sight is an import with Soule windage added and is not as good. My mentor said I stayed with one about a year too long before moving up to Baldwin.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Read this this thread for grits and shins, simply because I had a Ruger #3 in .45-70. Bought it on a whim from a local shop (it was so light and handy, and felt so good in the hands), and then spent a year trying to tame it down. Tried a recoil pad (it came with a carbine buttplate) and every imaginable way to load it down, including kapok filler, in those phone booth sized cases. (This was the days before Trailboss). Never did find a way to tame the thing; it like to kick my brains out.
Finally parted with it; handled the same gun in .223 the other day, and was tempted, at least for a minute.
Echoing what others have said here; the gun's action isn't the measure of what the gun will handle. Your shoulder is.
For the OP, there is something about punkin' rollers. Just ask Billy Dixon.
Moon

 

[Gordon]

A # 3 Ruger can be rebarelled and restocked easy enough tho, and will take any Cartridge pretty much.

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend bought a Ruger No 3 .22 K Hornet (rechambered from Hornet) and thought it a neat little rifle. Not very accurate, he consulted a gunsmith who said to rechamber it to .223 and stick to varmint loads suitable to the twist. It shot a lot better although not up to a bolt action.
He liked it well enough that he made a "No 2" out of it, No 1 wood on a No 3 action. Had to cut the Winchester style lever back to Sharps form. Really cute little gun, now.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

You picked the correct powders... although I'm an IMR guy, so I use IMR4198, not H, but that is a matter of preference, as is AA5744. I tried AA5744, it works, but not any better than IMR4198, for me anyway, and I use IMR4198 in my other cast rifle cartridges with excellent results.

The correct powder is Swiss Black Powder.

 

[Charlie98]

The correct powder is Swiss Black Powder.

Not this cowboy...