45/70 v .450 marlin v for grizzly bears

[phantomak47]

450 marlin or 45 70 too much for a whitetail?

I was looking at one of marlins guide guns in 450 marlin or 45 70 . Do these like 300 mags tear up much of the meat on deer. I hunt 200 yards or less so I dont need a powerful round, but I was wondering how these peform on deer. thanks

 

[critter]

I took a whitetail buck and a hog with my Ruger #1 in 45-70 this year. It is a FINE gun for such hunting. It is a 'thumper' on game and does not 'blow up' on game. It does not ruin a lot of meat, but punches a BIG hole both in and out for a blood trail if needed. I used 300 gr Rem JHP's and a load compatable with high end on the lever guns. I am well pleased with it and you will be also under the conditions you listed. Good luck and have fun!
(BTW, heavier bullets with heavy loads will penetrate more---but you don't need 'more' unless you are rhino hunting!)

 

[Smoke]

Nope. It's moving a whole lot slower than a 300 WIn Mag.

You can also buy "cowboy" rounds that are downloaded.

I have a 45-70 that I use on hogs a lot and have used on the small whitetails we have here.

Great guns.

Smoke

 

[mete]

Forget the 450 for deer , the 45-70 works fine. As a low velocity round ( less than 2000 fps) there is much less damage than the high velocity of a 300 mag. It punches a big hole and that's why it's so effective. I've used it for years for deer and it's worked fine.

 

[Sunray]

"...Forget the 450 for deer , the 45-70 works fine..." How odd you'd say that considering the 450 is just a rimmless .45-70. Except for finding brass or loaded ammo they're the same.

 

[mete]

The 450 Marlin is in essence a 458 2" American ,a wildcat that has been around for at least 25 years. It's loads are more than needed for deer. Ammo is more difficult to find. The 45-70 has a wide range of loads available for anything from deer and bigger.

 

[MeekandMild]

considering the 450 is just a rimmless .45-70

Well it is and isn't. I've always heard that the 450 was loaded hotter then the 45-70 due to the liability risk that somebody would blow up an old 45-70 rolling block rifle or old levergun which was actually meant for black powder only. The 45-70 was a black powder cartridge but the 450 was designed for smokeless powder modern guns. Is this true???

 

[JShirley]

Well, darn it. I posted a whole reply two hours ago.

How odd you'd say that...the 450 is just a rimmless .45-70.

Not odd at all. The .450 was developed to utilize the strength available in the Marlin lever guns without risking stoking up an old black powder-strength smokepole with one. As such, the basic .450 loading is more powerful than the "baseline" .45-70 405 or 300 grain loads.

Of the two, I'd get a .45-70. The 300 grain rounds are my choice, and they offer more than enough power for deer and hogs. I shot a small buck with my 1895G 4 years ago. The results were dramatic but not excessive, a nice large hole, but no huge chunks blown out. Deer fell in his tracks, spasmed for a few seconds, and died.

Using the .45-70 will let you go from the lighter loads that can also be fired in the old Trapdoors, all the way past the potential of the .450. The .45-70 has more case capacity.

The 300 grain SJHPs from Georgia Arms work well, and I can shoot almost minute of angle with them from my Marlin.

John

 

[Matt G]

I haven't seen new reports on the .450 Marlin, but initially, I was not impressed. Hornady. . . or was it Speer. . . ? was releasing some loads with some light bullets loaded fast. As a result, when Jim Wilson took his test gun with them on a field test hunt, he hit a nice big buck with a quartering shot, and the bullet failed to exit. (The buck DID die right there, but that's pretty low penetration.) Then he shot a hog with it, also with a quartering shot. . . and it failed to exit. (Hog died too, right there.)

I was not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater on the issue, as heavier bullets were certainly available to load it with. But that same could be said with the .45-70, so I was not at all interested in the .450.

 

[JShirley]

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/450mtext.htm

Although the external upper body dimensions of the 450 match the 45-70 Gov, given the heavier brass of its 375 H&H roots the case capacity of the 450 is approx 3+ grs less than the 45-70...In a real world comparison, the 450 is a lesser cartridge than a modern load (Marlin1895) 45/70.

I tend to want hunting- not varmint hunting, but BG hunting- rounds to exit. "Kills 'em dead" just ain't what I want, if it means widespread tissue destruction. Nice, large hole all the way through is so much better.

It was a Hornady 350 grain. Re that: http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm
Shooting Times magazine chronographed the Hornady 350 grain factory load at 2028 fps and 3197 ft. lb. of energy from the barrel of a Model 1895M rifle. (The "Guide Gun" in .450.)

 

[Michigun]

45-70 too much for deer? It’s hard to find something more overkill then the 12-gauge shotgun loaded with a slug… 1,900 fps with a ¾ ounce (right around 330 grains) .50-caliber sabot slug or right around 1,600 fps with a 1 ounce (right around 440 grains) .50-caliber sabot slug comes to mind. Not to mention that a ‘standard’ slug is almost twice the diameter of 45-70… close to .75 caliber if I’m remembering correctly.

A lot of shotgun hunters out there now.

I know my 12-gauge does zero meat damage with the behind the shoulder shot placement… I don’t bother with the work required to retrieve the meat between the ribs.

 

[MeekandMild]

JShirley, I don't understand the need for all these special bullets, expansion tests et cetera. The reason I say this is that I have seen a deer shot with T/C Cheap Shot solid lead .45 cal 240 gr sabotted bullet pushed by 110 gr of Pyrodex with a hole through her big enough to drop a quarter. Not as big a hole as Michigan's 12 ga projectiles, but still a decent sized hole.

 

[JShirley]

Yeah, I reckon by the time you've got a .45" projectile that'll punch all the way through, as long as you place it, there's no real need to expand further.

John

 

[mete]

The 450 hornady load is matched by the PMC 45-70 load - 350@2025. That's at 37,000psi. Garrett loads to 35,000 and BuffaloBore to 40,000. But remember , the 450 or 45-70 punches a big hole with little meat damage a very different mechanism than the high velocity cartridges. Driving a lightly constructed 300jhp at 2200+ may get you lots of venison burgher.

 

[Baron Von Richtofen]

I need a rifle to take down grizzly bears. I was looking at 2 short barreled marlin lever guns. One was a .450 marlin the other a 45/70. Isant the .450 more powerful? Will it go threw a high level of body armor. I also would like it in case a robber broke in my house and had body armor on. There are large grizzly bears around here. Will a 450 stop one with 1 or maybe 2 shots? Thanks

 

[Snowdog]

Will it go threw a high level of body armor?

What?

Just in case this post is legitimate and not the work of a troll, the .45-70 can be loaded just about as hot as a .450 marlin, and specialty loads can be bought (from Corbon and Buffalo Bore, for example) for premium prices that will do just that for you if you don't handload.

As for the robbers, buy a shotgun.

 

[artherd]

A .50BMG won't stop a bear withought a well-placed shot.

Will it go through armor? Suitable for home defense? You've GOT to be kidding me.

If someone breaks into your house, wearing body armor, you've got bigger problems then which gun to grab. (but that should be a shotgun.)

 

[Baron Von Richtofen]

i realize

that a 12 guage rem 870 is a good choice. But it will not go threw body armor. Where should I aim when shooting a bear? I would prefer a standard load to a hot loaded. a 450 is better?

 

[Baron Von Richtofen]

1

Does anybody have a 450 marlin?

 

[JShirley]

Baron,

I think you'll find a lot of answers about the .450 and .45-70, but additionally:

Virtually all rifle rounds will penetrate the most common SBA, Level II;

If you have the shot, aim for the nose.

Mete,

Georgia Arms is very careful not to load any cartridge very hot, especially one that might get stuffed in a rifle 100 years old. Their 300 grain .45-70 is advertised at 1800 fps, which is probably out of a 22" barrel. An 18 1/2" ported barrel will be less. And I assure you, tissue damage was not extensive, as I noted.

 

[mete]

Typical factory 300s go ~ 1880 and are loaded to about 18,000 psi. After shooting deer with various 300 factory loads for the last 7 years I can say that that's all that's needed, they work fine. No need to make a 458mag out of it. BTW those factory loads match the high velocity Winchester loads of 100 years ago !!

 

[JohnKSa]

PMC is now selling a 45-70 loading that duplicates the only 450 Marlin loading--it even uses the same Hornady bullet in the 450 Marlin load. Average price for a box is about $20.

AND, if you wish, there are a lot of other factory loadings for the 45-70, and quite a number of specialty loadings that will outperform the single available 450 Marlin load.

Which means that I can't understand why anyone would buy a 450.

1. There's only ONE factory load available in 450, MANY in 45-70.
2. Any gun you can get in 450 is also available in 45-70.
3. 45-70 has more case capacity so if you reload you can exceed 450 Marlin performance.
4. There are specialty ammo companies which sell 45-70 ammo that exceeds 450 Marlin performance.
5. The single 450 Marlin loading is duplicated by a reasonably priced 45-70 loading from a major ammunition company.

 

[samwe]

"I know my 12-gauge does zero meat damage with the behind the shoulder shot placement… I don’t bother with the work required to retrieve the meat between the ribs."

I did that on my first caribou hunt.
We were low on water, the day was late, there wasn't much meat, and some of it was damaged by the wound. (shot a little high).
I was unfortunate enough to meet the F&W officer at the trailhead.

Everyone I talk to tells me they rarely get the rib meat. I guess they have all gotten lucky. From now on I am getting all the meat I can and taking pictures. Leave nothing to chance.

 

[MeekandMild]

I need a rifle to take down grizzly bears.

A 30-30 is big enough to take one down if you've got a nice sized limb to stand on about 15 feet in the air. But nothing is big einugh if you're on the ground and got the shakes while he is charging you.